billvon 2,400 #76 September 11, 2008 >Any is NOT at the center of the thread. He is the original poster, he has expressed strong opinions on the subject, and he has hinted that he has "insider" information on the incident. He has made himself the center of the thread. >His actions have NOTHING to do with the fact that the person died. We don't know that. Per an earlier post, he was one of the people who briefed the pilot; the pilot's knowledge of the jump may have played into the fatality (or avoidance thereof.) He could, of course, explain that in more detail and clear up any misunderstandings. Or he might choose not to, in which case people will speculate as to what happened. His choice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 1 #77 September 11, 2008 Imbecile? Dunno never met you, but I wouldn't call you the smartest cookie in the jar. If you have a pilot that is allowing you to base jump from an aircraft in the US of A then he isn't to brillant either and would questions his decision making abillities. Now to play devils advocate 20 years ago I would have been all about breaking the law just for the rush of doing it but having survived my 20's without being killed or sent to prison for the rest of my life with 90% of the people I ran with I have a different outlook on the Law. MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy_Copland 0 #78 September 11, 2008 Thats the FAA's job between him and them. Im not about to put facts to people when there is an investigation going on. All i wanted out of this thread is for people to stop speculating. Whenever there is a fatality in skydiving everyone throws in the words "Dont assume" when people speculate about what they done wrong. Yet when its a pilot they seem to get a trump card and people speculate til they are blue in the face automatically assuming they are deaf, dumb and blind with no knowledge what so ever.1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #79 September 11, 2008 Your one warning. No personal attacks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dunderhead1 0 #80 September 11, 2008 i just read his first post then i didn`t bother read the replies....now i get the picture... im i sorry?, nahh....im just bored Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #81 September 11, 2008 >Im not about to put facts to people when there is an investigation going on. That's fine; you are under no obligation to. If you really don't want to influence an investigation, though, you might consider not arguing your case online to the degree you are doing. >Whenever there is a fatality in skydiving everyone throws in the words "Dont >assume" when people speculate about what they done wrong. They may well say that, but a large part of the forums here is for speculation, especially when the people involved won't talk about what happened. Often the only way to learn from an incident is to speculate and try to arrive at the best estimate of what happened. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 1 #82 September 11, 2008 ANDY. This isn't even about the Pilot. It is about BASE Jumping form an AIRCRAFT. It is ILLEGAL. Your still trying to put this off on others. This is not about anything other then all of those involved conspiring to break the law, which you(those invovled) did and the end result was someone DIED. Do you know what happens when you conspire to commit a criminal act resulting in a death? So how do you avoid that? That was how this all got started. I stated that to avoid a repeat of this is to hold eveyone involved accountable so next time SOMEONE will step up and say NO. MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 1 #83 September 11, 2008 Quote Your one warning. No personal attacks. Billy read what he wrote. He asked me if that made him a Imbecile I was just answering not making a personal attack MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dunderhead1 0 #84 September 11, 2008 he did the same thing as me...didn`t read!! and he`s a moderator...wow, im glad he`s not a russian general who have his finger on the bomb detonator hahaha....well...folks, i consider myself as banned here on this board in 5 min...(((more laught))) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #85 September 11, 2008 >Billy read what he wrote. I did. If someone says "I may be stupid, but I think . . ." and you say "yes, you are a little stupid" it's still a personal attack. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hangdiver 1 #86 September 11, 2008 Andy, first, I'm sorry you had a friend die. Some of us have had similar experiences, I know I have. That does not change the fact that the deceased broke the law. The pilot broke the law, knowingly or not, still broke the law. I have seen a show on T.V. within the last year that showed a well known Base Jumper exit a helicopter with Base Gear. Yes it was a SHSP rig and in Alaska. When the popular attitude is to ignore this law, it becomes a non-issue to those that participate because nothing has ever gone wrong. I highly doubt that in the show that I saw, the pilot knew he was breaking the law and putting his ticket in jeopardy. His company name was shown on his helicopter and his name was in the credits. I was actually very surprised that this jump made the final cut as it was clearly illegal to those who knew what they were watching. Just because many consider it a non-issue does not make it legal. When the shit does go sideways there is only one participant always held accountable by the FAA, the PILOT. "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #87 September 11, 2008 > I was actually very surprised that this jump made the final cut as it was >clearly illegal to those who knew what they were watching. I would point out while it may well have been illegal, there are ways to make such jumps legally. (After all, rig testing is done without TSOed harness/container systems.) I think the value of a thread like this is that it is likely to raise awareness of both skydivers and pilots when it comes to the legalities, risks and potential dangers of making such jumps. Communication and understanding of the legal/safety aspects is critical for any such jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #88 September 11, 2008 QuoteImbecile? Dunno never met you, but I wouldn't call you the smartest cookie in the jar. If you have a pilot that is allowing you to base jump from an aircraft in the US of A then he isn't to brillant either and would questions his decision making abillities. Now to play devils advocate 20 years ago I would have been all about breaking the law just for the rush of doing it but having survived my 20's without being killed or sent to prison for the rest of my life with 90% of the people I ran with I have a different outlook on the Law. for the last time : recreational parachuting from aircraft : SKYDIVING recreational parachuting from fixed object : BASE JUMPING you may use BASE gear on a skydive, or skydiving gear on a BASE jump. But the definitions stay. Please don't confuse the two. Remember the ice skating on grass - or did not read my previous post ? and thanks a lot for being open minded, it makes me warm and fuzzy knowing that you think that anybody who disagrees with your stance on "proper" skydiving is not a "smartest cookie in the jar". carry on Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hangdiver 1 #89 September 11, 2008 I fully understand how a jump as such can be legal. The systems used on the referenced helicopter jump in Alaska were clearly Single Parachute Base Rigs with no tertiary reserves. This jump was done after clouds canceled a planned skibase jump so I also highly doubt there were waivers applied for as well. The pilot obviously flew mostly skiers and had no clue as to what the rigs were. My point is that this has been going on for quite awhile now with no consequences, so it is widely accepted as ok to some in the B.A.S.E. community. This still doesn't make this type of jump legal and jeopardizes the pilots ticket. "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 1 #90 September 11, 2008 This is what you said :) Quotefor the record my most recent aircraft parachute jumps have been on non-TSOd gear and without reserves - does that make me an imbecile ? I was answering your question and regardless what Billy thinks I wasn't making a personal attack I don't know you so I can only make my determination based on what you stated for the record. So what is it that you stated? Well you stated that your most recent jumps where illegal (lets just call them jumps) from aircraft they are not "my stance on proper sklydiving" they are the Federal Goverments STANCE in other words the LAW. Now the intelligence of anyone breaking the laws is supsect but even more so when the consequences are so high. Now I am basing this purly on what you said and what the FAR says. Remember YOU asked me and frankly no one is disagreing with me. I am not the FAA I didn't write the law so you can't disagree with me :) MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #91 September 11, 2008 Big Picture . . . When I come home after sunset and get asked where I've been I say, "Jumping." When I come at four in the morning and get asked where I've been I say, "Jumping." "It's all the same thing, man." - Janis Joplin, 1969 NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #92 September 11, 2008 >My point is that this has been going on for quite awhile now with no >consequences, so it is widely accepted as ok to some in the B.A.S.E. community. I agree; I think we all remember Oscar's antics at Brush. If there is a good side to such incidents, it is that perhaps people will become more aware of the legal and safety implications of allowing such jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #93 September 11, 2008 Hi likes, Am I the 'JerryB' that you are referring to here: Quotedunderhead1, do you have issues with Brits just like JerryB does ? Do you like him think they should not be skydiving in the US ? If so, I have never said that I have issues with Brits. My last GF was a Brit and we had a great thing for over five years. I have never said that anyone should not be jumping in the USA. Just wanting clarification, JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #94 September 11, 2008 QuoteThis is what you said :) Quotefor the record my most recent aircraft parachute jumps have been on non-TSOd gear and without reserves - does that make me an imbecile ? I was answering your question and regardless what Billy thinks I wasn't making a personal attack I don't know you so I can only make my determination based on what you stated for the record. So what is it that you stated? Well you stated that your most recent jumps where illegal (lets just call them jumps) from aircraft they are not "my stance on proper sklydiving" they are the Federal Goverments STANCE in other words the LAW. Now the intelligence of anyone breaking the laws is supsect but even more so when the consequences are so high. Now I am basing this purly on what you said and what the FAR says. Remember YOU asked me and frankly no one is disagreing with me. I am not the FAA I didn't write the law so you can't disagree with me :) and now for the assumptions part. What if those jumps I talk about took place in a coutnry not so far away that did not mandate TSO nor I broke no rules by not having a dual parachute harness. Naturally being non-USA no FAA regs were broken. That, as I am sure you will guess will make it a legal jump. Thus, by your own deductive reasoning since I broke no rules - everything is fine. This is like the debate about the packjob(s) that DO NOT go bad on the 121st day - they are just not legal as per FAA, or the AADs, or other things that are regulated. Things that one does may be improper and not legal, but sure as are not stupid. On the same note, you can be doing something perfectly legal, but absolutely stupid. And attitudes like yours I think is exactly what Andy was complaining about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 1 #95 September 12, 2008 The problem with your arguement is we ARE talking about the USofA. This is not like the debate about packjobs. This is about making an illegal jump in the USofA which reulsted in a fatallity. PERIOD. This is BLACK and WHITE o there can be NO room for assumptions. Now if you want to talk about your OTHER issues thats fine start a thread and i'll give my opinion on that but concerning this it isn't my opnion it is the Federal Gooverments opinion. :) MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #96 September 12, 2008 QuoteThe problem with your arguement is we ARE talking about the USofA. This is not like the debate about packjobs. This is about making an illegal jump in the USofA which reulsted in a fatallity. PERIOD. This is BLACK and WHITE o there can be NO room for assumptions. Now if you want to talk about your OTHER issues thats fine start a thread and i'll give my opinion on that but concerning this it isn't my opnion it is the Federal Gooverments opinion. :) The illegality of the jump IN NO WAY caused the fatality. The illegality of the jump and the fatality are NOT related events, that have ZERO in common. Using SD gear on THAT jump and initiating deployment at the altitude that it was initiated at (which is NOT illegal) - would more than likely have the same fatal outcome. Again, this is where the Whuffo part of the argument comes in. Being narrow minded I believe is what this thread is about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 1 #97 September 12, 2008 geez this is an exercise in futillty. Resulted and CAUSED are not the same thing. At no time did I say the jump CAUSED a fatallity. AS to being related umm yes they are the chain of events where never broken so they are 1 event. Illegal jump resulting in a fatallity. Definition of Resulting "To end in a particular way" Caused "a person or thing that acts, happens, or exists in such a way that some specific thing happens as a result; the producer of an effect: You have been the cause of much anxiety. What was the cause of the accident? " Just excatly what are you arguing about? I still don't get it. You say I'm being narrow minded but the law is the law and I have not deviated from that so where are I being narrow minded? MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #98 September 12, 2008 perhaps I am reading too much into what you wrote. The way I read was "the Illegal jump that resulted in a fatality (because it was illegal" - sounds like you were not implying that being Illegal caused it to be Fatal. In which case yes, you are correct, with all the data present it was not a legal jump and the outcome of the jump resulted in a fatality. The narrow minded part - it would be foolish to think that the fact that it was illegal (due to gear being used) had anything to do with the fact that it was fatal. In this instance I don't believe having gear defined as legal by an FAR and/or a proper FAA waiver would make a difference. are we on the same page now ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 1 #99 September 12, 2008 Sorta :) The fact that it was illegal COULD have prevented the fatallity if the law was not broken and he was not allowed on the aircraft. If he wasn't allowed on the aircraft he wouldn't have died. This doesn't play to whether or not base gear is safe only that the FAA has deemed it illegal and if the law was always followed we would never see and incident like this. Now is that narrow minded? No and here is why. The Law is the law. Now if there was no law say in Canada and I was saying well the US has a Law so everyone else should follow it then I would be narrow minded. If the FAA got rid of the law today and someone wanted to use base gear from 2200' and opened at 2k (BSR's are still in play) Then go for it. If there are no BSR's in play and you want to exit at 500' I would still think it wasn't the wisest decision but wouldn't have an issue with it since no laws or bsr would be broken and there for no effect on me if you bounce :) Long story short I have no issue with Base or Base Gear or base jumpers. If I had started earlier in life i'd be huckin' myself off every everything high enough to get a canopy out. MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LloydDobbler 2 #100 September 12, 2008 Quoteperhaps I am reading too much into what you wrote. The way I read was "the Illegal jump that resulted in a fatality (because it was illegal" - sounds like you were not implying that being Illegal caused it to be Fatal. In which case yes, you are correct, with all the data present it was not a legal jump and the outcome of the jump resulted in a fatality. The narrow minded part - it would be foolish to think that the fact that it was illegal (due to gear being used) had anything to do with the fact that it was fatal. In this instance I don't believe having gear defined as legal by an FAR and/or a proper FAA waiver would make a difference. are we on the same page now ? Though it seems like you all are finally coming to understand each other, I wanted to chime in as someone who's been following this thread from the outside - I, too, have issues with the use of non-TSO'd gear on this jump. For the simple reason that it broke the law, and in doing so, might affect the rest of us. Here's the thing - most of the people in the US (and perhaps worldwide?) think we folks who jump from aircraft are nuts. And in a country where individual rights are under constant attack, I wouldn't be surprised if skydiving's days are numbered (hope not, but it could happen - whether because of legislation or because of gas prices). Given that there's already a common whuffo thought of 'Why would you jump out of a perfectly good airplane?', it seems to me that whenever something goes wrong - demo jump issues, fatality, whatnot - and negatively affects someone outside the sport, there's an increasingly good chance that it will come back to bite us all. The effect on the outside world can be as much as an injury to someone at a demo, or as little as a bit of bad press - it still counts against us all as a group. So what could happen from this incident? The pilot could lose his ticket. Which would be bad if pertinent info re: the FAR's being broken was withheld from him before the jump. But then what happens when the FAA looks at incidents like this one and, in all its bureaucratic wisdom, decides, 'Hey - because pilots don't know the difference, we need to implement some new program to make sure that no one gets on a plane without a TSO'd rig'? Result = more red tape at DZ's, higher costs for us skydivers due to said bureaucracy, it becoming MUCH harder to simply hire a helicopter to come to your boogie because the entire company has to go through a new 'flying jumpers certification process', etc, etc. I'm not saying all of this will happen because of one incident - I'm just saying that it all adds up, and at some point, this pressure cooker might boil over. What's more likely is, they'll just decide to outlaw jumping altogether. And given our numbers, I doubt we'll be able to put up too much of a fight. Do I personally think it's dumb to jump from a plane without a TSO'd dual-parachute container/harness? Yep. But if it's legal, go for it. It's your life, and I have no say in the matter. If it's not legal, though, and you still decide to make the jump, you'd better not have anything go wrong. Because if it does, those of us who are obeying the rules may be lumped in with you & penalized for your actions. (Because let's face it - skydivers or B.A.S.E. jumpers, we're all the same in the eyes of most whuffos.)Signatures are the new black. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites