a must read

[adamsr 0]

I am not trying to compare myself to someone with much greater experience. I hope one day to have thousands of jumps and be experienced in the sport, but I realise that goal is many years away.

All I am saying is that I believe a 200 square foot reserve canopy is well within the level of my abilites at this time and do not see a wingloading of 1.25:1 - 1.3:1 on a 7-cell square F111 canopy to be extreme or above my abilities at all.

All of these comments and flaming stemmed from me just backing up a point that I believe that looking out for other skydivers, reminding EVERYONE to be careful as skydiving is a dangerous sport, and that EVERYONE is at risk not only those with less than 1000 jumps is a fair point to make. I did not aim or associate the comment to any particular person, but it was a general comment aimed at the entire skydiving community, including myself!!

I dont know why some people, especially it seems the skydivers with more experience, would begrudge anyone looking out for them or concerning themselves with other skydivers well-being and safety.

I want to put this subject to rest now, as was said in a previous post we will have to agree to disagree.

[The111 1]

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I dont know why some people, especially it seems the skydivers with more experience, would begrudge anyone looking out for them or concerning themselves with other skydivers well-being and safety.

Take a minute and read your own words, man. The people commenting on your reserve loading are not begrudging you and certainly not "flaming" you as you suggested. They are simply looking out for you or concerning themselves with another skydiver's safety.

Me? If someone with 10 times my jump numbers suggested I had an overloaded reserve canopy, specifically past the TSO (would that be somewhat illegal since the F in FAA stand for federal?), I'd be changing my gear setup immediately, or have a damn good reason to argue with him (like perhaps having intentionally landed that canopy already in many conditions to prove I can do it, which maybe you have done, I don't know...)

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[nicknitro71 0]

With all the due respect you are still not getting the point here.

The max exit weight limit of your reserve is 220Lbs. Your exit weight is 270 hence your are over the limit by 50 LBS. Regardless the footage you are over the max limit set by the manufacture, but it seems to me you know better than Flight Concepts.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[mjosparky 3]

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I know this is due to strength tolerances, but indicates to me that wingloading in no way affects the manufacturers tolerances.

It has nothing to do with your ability to handle the wing loading; it has to do with your canopy’s ability to handle the weight during deployment. Wing loading is just another way of saying how much weight is under the canopy.

You have a “Maximum operating weight limit” placed on a reserve canopy that is relative to the weight the canopy was tested to, “Test Weight”. Your canopy has a “Maximum operating weight limit” of 220 pounds and was tested to 264 pounds. At a wing loading of 1.35 you are 6 pounds over what it was tested to and 50 pounds over the “Maximum operating weight limit” of the canopy.

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Personally i dont see why if the 126 - 253 can only take 254 pounds, why the 281 square foot can take 300 pounds.

All canopies are not created equal. Just because you can’t personally see it does not mean there is not a reason. One reason is 281 sq. ft. is bigger than 253 sq. ft.

This is not a flame, it just pointing out the facts to you. If you blow your reserve up on a terminal opening, whether you can handle the wing loading is a moot point.

Sparky

And my reserve is loaded at 1.07/1.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[davelepka 4]

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1.25:1 - 1.3:1 on a 7-cell square F111 canopy to be extreme or above my abilities at all.

The question here is the ability of your reserve.

1.3 on a PD-99R is 103 lbs. A 103 lb jumper will be doing approx. 95 mph at terminal. The reserve will have no problem holding together at that speed.

Your speed at terminal is likely to be much higher. With an exit weight of 270 lbs, it's not unreasonable to expect you to be in excess of 130 of 140 mph and opening a reserve. How do you feel your canopy plioting skills will hold up with a blown cell, or a several broken lines?

In truth, even if your reserve holds up, I think you'll be surprised at the lack of performance your Cricket will offer you at 1.3.

None of this is even considering the possibility of a premature reserve deployment during freeflying or swooping to a formation where you will grossly exceed the limitations of your reserve.

Scary stuff.

[billvon 2,435]

>Regardless the footage you are over the max limit set by the
>manufacture, but it seems to me you know better than Flight Concepts.

I have overloaded nearly every main canopy I have ever jumped, including some of the larger ones (i.e. a Pursuit 215.) Of course, get the equivalent canopy nowadays and it's rated to much higher loadings. Has nylon changed? Has the air changed? Nope. But manufacturer's perceptions of how people load their canopies _have_ changed.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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If every skydiver throughout the world took a step back, evaluated their performance and aimed to be safer and more conservative under canopy low turn fatalities would reduce across the board irrespective of jump numbers.

I think you should follow this advice. (They are your words.)

One of the telltale indicators of the 'Bullet-proof' jumpers is that they keep saying "I know what I'm doing. I know the risks. etc"

Here's what you've said on this thread:

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I believe a 200 square foot reserve canopy is well within the level of my abilites at this time and do not see a wingloading of 1.25:1 - 1.3:1 on a 7-cell square F111 canopy to be extreme or above my abilities at all.

You are over the recommended maximum weight and the TSO limit.

Do you think this is consistent with 'aimed to be safer and more conservative under canopy '?

Do you know that jumpers have died because their over-loaded reserve blew up?
The last one was probably when you started jumping or slightly before that.

Your actions speak louder than your words. Your actions shout out "All those guidelines do not apply to me."

Of course, you could say "Do as I say, not as I do."

More 'Paranak the Magnificent' material:

Answer: A WL of 1.3 is not extreme for a 200 sq. ft. F-111 canopy.
Question: Why do you surpass the TSO limits of your reserve?

For Bill von

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get the equivalent canopy nowadays and it's rated to much higher loadings. Has nylon changed? Has the air changed? Nope. But manufacturer's perceptions of how people load their canopies _have_ changed.

Yes, the nylon has changed. It used to be F-111 mains everywhere. Now it's mostly ZP mains. Main WL rating changes are because of the change in the nylon.

Check out the specs for the PDRs
The 193 and 218 both have max wt of 254. (Comparable to the Maverick.)
Max for Adv is 222 and 235, respectively.
WL of 1.15 and 1.08, respectively.


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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[adamsr 0]

I can see your point entirely, and the reason for me overloading my reserve is due to me putting on a bit of weight. I'm working hard to get the weight off, but university doesn't help!!

Also the data from flight concepts seems contradictionary, as the official manual for my reserve states, and I am using a direct quote:-

"Munufacturers Recommended Maximum Suspended Weight (defined as Jumper + clothing + equipment)"

Maverick 200-R = 240 LB

Yes at my current weight including gear I admit i am 15LB above, but before I jump next (I'm unable to jump over the winter due to university commitments) I will be below this limit again. Also the Manufacturers use of the word 'Recommended' indicates some leaway.

And as I pointed out earlier PISA sets a recommended upper limit of 1.2:1 on all their canopies, which especially on the Heatwave ellyptical many people will exceed. Are you saying all these people should not use their canopies if they are loading at greater than 1.2:1?

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I notice both your profiles do not have you gear info or weights, but i would not be suprised at all if you are overloading your reserves also.

No, I didn't overload my reserve, I was 30+ pounds under the max weight. So much for that theory.

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The maximum exit weight for PD canopies is the same for the PD reserve 126 all the way up to 253.
I know this is due to strength tolerances

Wrong again.

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Personally i dont see why if the 126 - 253 can only take 254 pounds, why the 281 square foot can take 300 pounds.

Do some research into TSO's and you'll find the answer.

Derek

[jeiber 0]

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Your speed at terminal is likely to be much higher. With an exit weight of 270 lbs, it's not unreasonable to expect you to be in excess of 130 of 140 mph and opening a reserve. How do you feel your canopy plioting skills will hold up with a blown cell, or a several broken lines?

Smaller canopies are actually more structurally sound than larger ones, due to less distance between spans, ie more support per square foot.

Needless to say, this is a poor reason to downsize...

Jeff

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[davelepka 4]

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Smaller canopies are actually more structurally sound than larger ones

In most cases that may be so. Due to some technical mumbo jumbo (TSO-something or other), the PDR 281 is actually rated to 300 lbs, up from the 254 lbs. of the PDR 253.

[jeiber 0]

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Check out the specs for the PDRs

According to the specs, the only reserve I should jump is a PDR 281. So I'm supposed to find a rig that'll hold a 281 reserve and a 150 main, or quit jumping?!

I'm overloading my reserve, not because I want to, but because I had limited alternatives when it came to equipment selection. I know PD has a new material now that packs smaller, thereby allowing me to increase size, but I'm not sure about max weight....

Jeff

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[MakeItHappen 15]

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I can see your point entirely, and the reason for me overloading my reserve is due to me putting on a bit of weight. I'm working hard to get the weight off, but university doesn't help!!

Just in case it comes up, can we quote you in your obituary? and can I make another Paranak joke with it?

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Also the data from flight concepts seems contradictionary, as the official manual for my reserve states, and I am using a direct quote:-

"Munufacturers Recommended Maximum Suspended Weight (defined as Jumper + clothing + equipment)"

Maverick 200-R = 240 LB

Yes at my current weight including gear I admit i am 15LB above, but before I jump next (I'm unable to jump over the winter due to university commitments) I will be below this limit again. Also the Manufacturers use of the word 'Recommended' indicates some leaway.

What exactly is the contradiction? (I'm using 270 lbs as your weight because that what backs out from your WL and canopy numbers.) The maximum of 254 lbs. does not have leeway.
The contradiction I see is that you knowingly exceed the TSO limitations.
Where does it say that college kids, that put on a few pounds over the winter, can exceed the limits on a FCI reserve? I missed that on their web site.

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And as I pointed out earlier PISA sets a recommended upper limit of 1.2:1 on all their canopies, which especially on the Heatwave ellyptical many people will exceed. Are you saying all these people should not use their canopies if they are loading at greater than 1.2:1?

It does not matter what I say. It matters that PISA says that.
In the US you can jump anything for your main.

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According to the specs, the only reserve I should jump is a PDR 281. So I'm supposed to find a rig that'll hold a 281 reserve and a 150 main, or quit jumping?!

Well, it is your life!

BTW, in the early 1990's when the mains started to get a bit smaller, people put false bottoms in the main pack tray to take up the extra space. There is always that type of solution. Ask Winsor about this. He has a system with significantly different sized canopies. I think it's a Racer.

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I'm overloading my reserve, not because I want to, but because I had limited alternatives when it came to equipment selection. I know PD has a new material now that packs smaller, thereby allowing me to increase size, but I'm not sure about max weight....

Just in case it comes up, can we quote you in your obituary? and can I make another Paranak joke with it?

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.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[mjosparky 3]

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Has nylon changed? Has the air changed?

None of that has change. The standards that a reserve canopy and H/C are tested to has changed.

And this is a reserve we are talking about, not a main. Overloading your reserve can lead to a bad hair day.

Under TSO-C23d the “Minimum test weight” is up from 254 to 264 and the “Minimum test speed” is up from 150 KEAS to 180 KEAS. This gives you a “Maximum operating weight” of 220 pounds and “Maximum operating speed” of 150 KEAS.

Adamsr,

The Maverick reserve is an older design and very well could have been tested under TSO-C23c which has lower test weight and speed. You will find that quite a few jumpers are wearing overloaded reserves on their backs. That does not make it the smart thing to do. As someone post earlier, people have died under overloaded reserves that blew up on deployment.

As I said before, this is not a flame, just thought you would like to know about the added risk you are taking.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[adamsr 0]

Thanks for the info. To be honest it's not something i really thought about or researched when buying my rig. I have put on some weight since buying my rig.... guess i need to get off my ass and get the weight off!!

[riggerrob 561]

The Maverick reserve is an older design and very well could have been tested under TSO-C23c which has lower test weight and speed.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Manufacturers have learned a lot about designing reserves for heavier weights since the Maverick and Raven were designed in the 1980s. Improved aerodynamic design produce softer landings for the same square footage.

For example, during our last conversation, Chris from Precision admitted that Ravens flew like $#@! when loaded more than 1.4 pounds per square foot. Then he went on the brag about how great new R-Max reserves flew when loaded at 1.9 by test jumpers.
For another example: every time I jumped a Firelite 176 main - back when they were fashionable - my ankles told me not to repeat that foolishness. But my (1994 vintage) FFE Amigo 172 reserve lands quite softly with a heavier me underneath it.

A lot of skydivers make the mistake of expecting 1980s vintage, rectangular, 7-cell, F-111 reserves to fly like 2000-vintage, tapered, 9-cell, ZP mains.
Hah!
Two vastly different classes of canopies!

[davelepka 4]

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expecting 1980s vintage, rectangular, 7-cell, F-111 reserves to fly like 2000-vintage, tapered, 9-cell, ZP mains.

This, often times without the benefit (I use that term loosely) of any jumps on an F-111 canopy, save some possible jumps on a 280 sq ft student canopy.

I second your hah. Hah!

[AndyMan 7]

>> Has nylon changed? Has the air changed?

> None of that has change. The standards that a reserve canopy and H/C are tested to has changed.

Hasn't the use of Spanwise reinforcement changed?

Not that this would apply to the older Maverick.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[billvon 2,435]

>Yes, the nylon has changed. It used to be F-111 mains everywhere.

My Pursuit 215 used 1.5oz F111 instead of the standard 1.1oz F111 - stronger for CRW. Yet it was rated for lower exit weights than my next canopy, a 1.1oz F111 PD190. Part of the reason, I believe, is that canopy manufacturers have been responding to the desire to increase loadings. I have seen a few cases where a specific design has had higher and higher maximum loadings placarded onto it as time goes by. Again, nothing is changing there except the perception of what "too heavily loaded" is.

When I started skydiving, our DZO bought a brand new, deadly Monarch 190. No one but him could jump it; only he had the thousands of jumps needed to safely control that deathtrap. Now, if a 160 lb, 200 jump skydiver was considering canopies, the Monarch 190 would be the _conservative_ choice. The canopy hasn't changed but our perceptions of risk (and the training environment, and the skydiving world overall) has.

[mjosparky 3]

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>> Has nylon changed? Has the air changed?

> None of that has change. The standards that a reserve canopy and H/C are tested to has changed.

Hasn't the use of Spanwise reinforcement changed?

Not that this would apply to the older Maverick.

_Am

Yes, construction methods had to change to meet the new test requirements.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[kallend 1,651]

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sorry, I didn't judge you in particular. But quite a few in your shoes have been posting similar lines of thinking that this is a problem of the next generation. And that's pretty dangerous thinking to me. One can get complacent in their real experience, just as those hotshots can get complacent in their perceived experience.

The jump numbers I've have for LOWT fatalities from early 05 to 03:

1000, 4000, 624, 1116, 1000, 15, 94, 800, 1000, 44, 1334. Though the median experience for a canopy related fatality over the past 10 years is right about 500, for LOWT in the very recent past it's 1000.

You just don't get the point that he is trying to make. He didn't say anything about complacency, the next generation or perceived experience. He was talking about the people with "I am bullet proof" mentality.

You should read what the man posted and not apply your agenda to it for the sake of arguing. Try accepting it just as it is written.

Sparky

I read what he posted, he explicitly picked on jumpers in the 200 - 1000 jump range.

kelpdiver was quite correct to make his observation in response.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mjosparky 3]

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sorry, I didn't judge you in particular. But quite a few in your shoes have been posting similar lines of thinking that this is a problem of the next generation. And that's pretty dangerous thinking to me. One can get complacent in their real experience, just as those hotshots can get complacent in their perceived experience.

The jump numbers I've have for LOWT fatalities from early 05 to 03:

1000, 4000, 624, 1116, 1000, 15, 94, 800, 1000, 44, 1334. Though the median experience for a canopy related fatality over the past 10 years is right about 500, for LOWT in the very recent past it's 1000.

You just don't get the point that he is trying to make. He didn't say anything about complacency, the next generation or perceived experience. He was talking about the people with "I am bullet proof" mentality.

You should read what the man posted and not apply your agenda to it for the sake of arguing. Try accepting it just as it is written.

Sparky

I read what he posted, he explicitly picked on jumpers in the 200 - 1000 jump range.

kelpdiver was quite correct to make his observation in response.

That your opinion, not mine.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[AFFI 0]

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