Incidents and deaths forums

[crashtested 0]

mod's your doing a absolutely rubbish jobs at keeping guess work, speculative junk, and sky gods bias and somewhat useless information out of the above forum.

I have just spent 20 minutes going through endless trawl about the cypress fire or lack of, or total mal that happened 2 weeks ago.

No conclusive statements
Using speculative opinions garnered from guess work
No Rigger or faa or uspa report
No data from cypress

and a bunch of "skydivers" bitching about the possibility of their beloved cypress not working.

These forums have to be kept down to cold hard facts otherwise they are completely pointless, reading peoples "opinions" who have no idea on the equipment, how it actually works, why it did not work, how it could be made better, what the jumper could have done to save himself, what went wrong etc etc are completely irrelevant to anybody apart from stoking up there own ego's on how they know what’s best.

Then badgering the guys son, who is probably doing all he can to keep it together (Jumping a week after the incident, rational behaviour?) is completely out of line.

That and many incident reports have become a Complete Waste of time, all it serves is another bitching forum.

I’m not tiered or drunk; I just see the only staple of DZ.com becoming another pointless attribute to this site.

[PhreeZone 15]

The "cold hard facts" are put into the database, the forum is for discussion around the incident.

USPA reports take 6-9 months to be published and they are just sanitized write ups from the S&TA or DZO. FAA does not publish reports on skydiving deaths.
CYPRES data is proprietary and they are in on way obligated to share it with the community at large (as far as I know in that case they have not even looked at it yet).
DZO knows nothing about the incident since no one saw the last 20 seconds of it.

I was with his son on the skydive.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[format 0]

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completely irrelevant to anybody apart from stoking up there own ego's on how they know what’s best

Wellcome to the club! Seem to fit in.

However, I disagree. It's not a waste of time, it's only more time-consuming, result is still there.

What goes around, comes later.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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FAA does not publish reports on skydiving deaths.

Yes it does. A simple FOIA request can get that document to you.
Depending on the nature of the accident, there may be additional documents that are generated months after the accident.
Sometimes there is a report by a DPRE.
Sometimes they only have what the local FSDO person reports.
Sometimes you can get the CYPRES data too.
Sometimes there are internal FAA documents between the FSDO and FAA HQ.
Sometimes there are documents between the FAA and the USPA.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[PhreeZone 15]

Is any of this information available within 2 weeks of an incident occurring? Last I looked no. The local FAA has already said they were not looking to investigate this issue any further.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[DSE 3]

In the case of Dan Kulpa's fatality in Sebastian, Florida, on January 2, 2009, the FAA has yet to release a report, although they said the won't be investigating any further.
The ME took over a month to release the report.
The police department closed the case with a pending filing that awaited the ME report.
None of the reports mention Dan's coach nor in-air buddies by name, none of them mention his canopy, state of mind, rig, nor even wingsuit by name/model.
All of those fundamentals are found (albeit ridiculously argued) in the Incidents forum.

Sure, people get things wrong in there. It's not the moderators job to make it right, it's their job to keep the conversation from looping and to keep irrelevancy out of the discussion. There is one person from your home DZ for instance, that contaced the USPA claiming I was the instructor. Another person claimed that Dan had been smoking weed moments before the jump. Both not true, both easily refuted, but speculation around a not-easily explained fatality is to be expected and to a limited degree, welcomed. Eventually, once the ME's report was filed, the correct information was posted.

As far as the son doing a skydive a week after his dad's death; that sort of thing is exceptionally common.

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

Is any of this information available within 2 weeks of an incident occurring? Last I looked no. The local FAA has already said they were not looking to investigate this issue any further.

FAA Form 8020-23 is usually filed within two weeks.
DPRE reports vary. The inspection is done rather quickly, but the report filed has a longer time line.
Reports from an AAD mfg depend on how quickly the unit is sent to them.
They are usually very quick about that.
There was a non-fatal accident in FL a couple of years ago. I had possession of the equipment and sent the AAD to the mfg, per request of the jumper. The mfg had a report within two days of receiving the AAD. It was less than a week from the accident date.
Reports from NTSB take up to a year, but most skydiving accidents do not involve AC.

Most eyewitness reports suffer from mixing observations with conclusions.
IOW, they do not state 'This is what I observed' followed by a separate section of 'This is what I conclude'
They mix it up and say something like 'I saw him track away and clutch his chest, thus he must have been having a heart attack'.
Most USPA reports are written this way.

The veracity of these 'official' reports at times has been suspect.
One DPRE claimed that a Sentinel AAD fired on the jump in question and fired at 1000 ft. Neither of these two claims can be made with certainty.
One USPA report claimed that the FAA was going to stop all tandem jumps. The FAA never issued a memo to that effect.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[CornishChris 5]

People posturising on the internet? No! Tell me it isn't so.

Strain out the shit and take in the relevant information. If it isn't perfect then thank it for being better than nothing or wind your neck in and don't comment at all.

There is a lot of shit on the net, not just in incident forums, and we, the users, choose to use it in full knowledge of that.

The unpaid mods do a good job in the situation, with a bunch of twats like us posting all kinds of crap.

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[billvon 2,435]

>mod's your doing a absolutely rubbish jobs at keeping guess work,
>speculative junk, and sky gods bias and somewhat useless information
>out of the above forum.

That's because we don't do that. Our job is to keep the _completely_ useless information out of Incidents. The rest we leave so that people can read about what happened.

In an ideal world, the jumper themselves would make the first post, followed by the S+TA at the DZ, the DZO, the EMT who first examined the jumper, the manufacturer of the jumper's gear and the rigger who investigated the incident.

We're not in an ideal world. Often, none of those people post here. (Which is fine, since it's completely voluntary.) Instead, we get secondhand and thirdhand reports and speculation. Is that better than firsthand info? No. Is it better than no information at all? Yes, in our opinion.

If it bothers you to see all the above, we have created a fatality database that has all the speculation, third hand guesses, advice etc. removed. You can go there and completely ignore the Incidents forum.

Or you can read the Incidents forum and contribute if you choose. If you do so, you will see speculation, thirdhand info and advice ranging from so-so to pretty good. (We do our best to delete the really bad advice.)

[feuergnom 22]

noise in incidents forum

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[crashtested 0]

Good points well made. nice thread.

Thanks