Avion 0 #51 May 4, 2005 Of course run anything you want to attempt or use by your instructors before hand. I do, and have recieved such good and such surprising responses that I was glad I did. Alrighty then, moving on... My replies in these forums are mostly an excersize in both learning the facts of skydiving and and learning how to express them in a clear and consise manner. All this is for my hopefully up and coming book on skydiving. And hey, if I can prevent some one from doing something stupid, that would make me feel good too I have been chastized several times, sometimes by people with only slightly more experience than I, for having the impetus to say anything at all, in view of my current experience. The interesting thing is that they usually ignore the content and validity of what I said, which often is a quote or paraphrase from one of their own posts or books, and criticize me simply for replying at all. Apparently, speaking right's are only recognized after a person has both at least several years of involvement and at least 600 to 1000 jumps. Only after I defended my posts, by identifing the references I was using, Brian Germain's canopy book, the Skydivers Handbook, PD educational articals etc, did my critisizers quell themselves. Maybe, they just ignore me now. In any case, to directly address your point: QuoteDon`t take offend, but recently "skygods" are giving full detailed description about everything instead of the short and polite redirect to own JM/coach/instructor. I consider myself a student of skydiving, and consider the last step of learning to be teaching. Accordingly, I relpy to posts fully insead replying with just a curt "Ask your instructors" a few reasons: 1) The answer to the question is probable archived here, and instead of searching for a previous thread again, I have dug into the archives for a number of topics, and posting a link to it, or telling someone how to search for it themselves, if I already know the answer, it gives me the opportunity to explain it in my own words, hopefully even better than before, and if I lack an understanding of the question, it gives me the additional opportunity to research and learn more myself, although in that case, I omit a reply just to see what the "Skygods" have to say first. 2) Because I did my homework well before I went to AFF, I noticed that my instructors, resist providing in depth explainations as to why to do the the things they tell you to do. There is a couple of reasons for this: One, they want to avoid having the student thinking about anything else in the air other than the dive flow, and two 'training' is less comprehensive than 'research.' The student is paying to be trained how to be a skydiver rather than paying to be educated in how to be an authority on skydiving. So, such detailed explainations are simply beyond the explicit scope of AFF. To their credit, I have noticed that my instructors are now much more willing to talk about the reasons and opinions behind things since I have graduated, especially if I buy them a beer , and comprehend their tenacity to stick strictly to the written structure of AFF without elaboration, for it is their livelyhood that is on the line with each and every student. 3) Also because I did my homework well before going to AFF, I noticed my instructors told me to do things or allowed me to do things that varied from the recomended pratices that I had read, which were writted by some of the most respected authorities of skydiving. These things, rather than being outright safety violations, were within the scope of ST&A judgment calls and were "the way we do things here" type of stuff. However, I felt myself the better for knowing there were other respected views, and thereby for having a broader perspective in spite of the fact that my instuctors attempted to make it appear that their way was the only respected way. Ultimately, I did things the way my instructors wanted. As it was, I was paying them to teach me their way, and had taken quite some time in deciding where I would recieve the best instuction. Although, I did realized I had the choise of continuing somewhere else, where they did things according to the authorities that I had read, I choose to trust the training of the instructors where I had started. After all, they were reported to be the best in the world. So, where was I to go, but downhill from there. AFF actually went more smoothly, than I ever could have imagined. Evidently, I choose well. All of this I do, because this is the land of freedom and I value a person's option to make an informed decision. Thus, I do my homework well, because it is my own life, and others too, for that I take ultimate responsibility, whenever I jump out of a plane. Cheers PS If you want to talk about fear. Durning the course of my studies before ever jumping, I dug deep into the fatality database reading 4-5 years worth of incident reports, both here and at the USPA. It practially froze me with fear, and I thought myself insane, for wanting to be part of this sport. With continued reading, I began to see patterns of avoidable mistakes leading to incidents. Once I began to recogize those patterns, my fear began to diminish, because I realized that a large portion of all incidents was voluntary, meaning that they could have been completely avoided by employing both proper attention and good judgement. The remaining incidents, horrifying as they are, comprise a very small number jumps in view of all the jumps made. My point is: The sport is much more safe, than it first appears, for those who do their due diligence. Therefore, I continue to read the incidents forums, in order to constantly refesh both my concern and motivation to do my part. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orangemagoo 0 #52 May 5, 2005 QuoteQuoteWell done boys.......you have a success to plant fear in others mind. It`s really nice to save us not to commit those faults that you managed to gain experience. I'm kinda confused by your post, not 100% sure what you are trying to say but from what i can figure out this is my reply... Your first mistake was believing everything you read on the internet. There is a very recent post by the the god of all skygods that is bad information, but I can't get a moderator delete it, or move it and have the super skygod clarify. My suggestion is talking face to face with your instructors at your dropzone, they know you better than they do on here. Most everyone experiences fear no matter how many jumps they have and regardless of what the internet said. Judy If I may... ...not for one second do I (and I hope others) take for gospel what I read here. (Can you imagine this scenario at a DZ? ... "well, the guy on dropzone.com said it was okay!") It's discussion. And discussion raises questions. I've had more questions generated in my head by reading what are on these forums than I ever would have come up with on my own. That is to my benefit. I occasionally ask a question, but it's just that: a question. I'm not looking for an absolute answer. That's my instructors' job. Reading these forums is an invaluable tool. Taking what I've read back to my instructor is the key. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #53 May 5, 2005 Quote...not for one second do I (and I hope others) take for gospel what I read here. (Can you imagine this scenario at a DZ? ... "well, the guy on dropzone.com said it was okay!") Oh it happens..... QuoteReading these forums is an invaluable tool. Taking what I've read back to my instructor is the key. The problem is not this line of thinking...It is the folks that "Shop" for the answer they want. They then latch onto that answer and ignore any that do not fit in the scope of what THEY WANT. A guy asks, "Do you think I will be fine on a "X" wingload?" He gets 7 replies. 6 tell him no, and one says yes. He latches onto the yes and ignores the no's.... It happens a lot more than you think."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #54 May 5, 2005 QuoteBecause I did my homework well before I went to AFF, I noticed that my instructors, resist providing in depth explainations as to why to do the the things they tell you to do. There is a couple of reasons for this: One, they want to avoid having the student thinking about anything else in the air other than the dive flow, and two 'training' is less comprehensive than 'research.' The student is paying to be trained how to be a skydiver rather than paying to be educated in how to be an authority on skydiving. When you get more experience and maybe become a coach or a LO or an instructor you'll learn about this and why things are done that way. The simple version is that its very easy to overload 95% of the students out there with even just a little too much information. You can watch it in their eyes when you crossed that point, the light switches off, learning has stopped and what you may have just taught them may not have stuck. So instructors tend to err on the side of cautious when teaching a student due to that, but then the instructor can fill in the gaps later. The gaps that aren't necissary to complete the next skydive. For instance, with an AFF Cat D skydiver, teaching them the detailed reasons on how a canopy flies, pitch, roll, yaw, etc really won't do them any good. Although its good information and should be learned eventually, for that student they need to be reinforced on landing patterns, even flaring, correct flaring height and finishing the flare. See what I'm saying?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #55 May 5, 2005 QuoteWhen you get more experience and maybe become a coach or a LO or an instructor you'll learn about this and why things are done that way. The simple version is that its very easy to overload 95% of the students out there with even just a little too much information. You can watch it in their eyes when you crossed that point, the light switches off, learning has stopped and what you may have just taught them may not have stuck. So instructors tend to err on the side of cautious when teaching a student due to that, but then the instructor can fill in the gaps later. The gaps that aren't necissary to complete the next skydive. For instance, with an AFF Cat D skydiver, teaching them the detailed reasons on how a canopy flies, pitch, roll, yaw, etc really won't do them any good. Although its good information and should be learned eventually, for that student they need to be reinforced on landing patterns, even flaring, correct flaring height and finishing the flare. See what I'm saying? Actually, I do. Have experienced overload significantly durning my first couple of tunnel flights, and have watched alot of other people experience it in the tunnel too, I am somewhat familar with both what it feels like on the inside, if my reaction was typical, "Where am I, what' happining, who is this person making hand gestures in front of my face..." and what it looks like on the outside, a wide eyed, tense, paniced sort of expression. It really is sweet to see people overcome that and regain their awarness and control of themselves again. Upon some reflection, that helps make more sense of why they did things the way they did. Although at the time, it made me wonder. Whenever information is dilibrately withheld from me, it tends to stimulate my paranoia Now that I understand things better, I can translate that tunnel experience into the sky where the stakes are higher, and therefore the training more disiplined. Ive got the feeling that I'll enjoy working with people in the air. I know the road to becoming an instructor is a long one that will take years, although I might be able to become a coach in within a year or so. I'm already planing on taking the SkydiveU coach course after I get my B licence. Cheers and thanks, Brian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paige 0 #56 May 5, 2005 QuoteIf my post is not about you why do you reply? Because that's what you do in forums , you open discussion to everyone for them to comment. Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #57 May 5, 2005 If it makes you day better............ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paige 0 #58 May 5, 2005 QuoteIf it makes you day better............ LIGHTEN UP my god!Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #59 May 6, 2005 Get your own god! I`m not yours.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #60 May 6, 2005 Yee! Someone got my message finally. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paige 0 #61 May 6, 2005 QuoteGet your own god! I`m not yours.... I rule u what are you talking about?!?!?! Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #62 May 6, 2005 Quote Yee! Someone got my message finally. Nope, I just got tired of trying to help you learn and trying to help you learn good choices to help keep you safe. Go frap in if you want, if you don't want to listen to myself and others with a shitload more experience then me, then go ahead. You're not in my country so you're not going to effect skydiving "locally." That's sad to say, but I just really don't care.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #63 May 6, 2005 I`m sorry to hear that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #64 May 6, 2005 QuoteI`m sorry to hear that. Dude - what do you expect? You ask for advice, you get advice you don't care for and then tell people with THOUSANDS of jumps compared to your HUNDREDS that THEY'RE wrong??? Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #65 May 6, 2005 QuoteDude - what do you expect? You ask for advice, you get advice you don't care for and then tell people with THOUSANDS of jumps compared to your HUNDREDS that THEY'RE wrong??? That happens alot on here. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
