free flaliers ?

[swoopfly 5]

hey

just a quick question which sometimes bothers me on exit.
lets say you are doing a 2 way freefly so you go out behind the belly flyers, then after you is the solo freeflyer that cant freefly but is learning to. Well if they exit behind you and ride the hill down on there belly dosent that go aginst the idea of freeflyers last? if they just flail around and basically do a belly exit from the start wont that put them right over you? how do you poeple feel about this situation??

[eightate8at8 0]

Pardon my asking, but I just have never been exactly sure on how to load the plane. Is the general idea you're stating here that freefliers have less of a hill than someone on their belly would? When I was starting, I always figued freefliers out before belly just because of the fall rate but obviously that's wrong

[swoopfly 5]

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Pardon my asking, but I just have never been exactly sure on how to load the plane. Is the general idea you're stating here that freefliers have less of a hill than someone on their belly would? When I was starting, I always figued freefliers out before belly just because of the fall rate but obviously that's wrong[/rep


when you exit on your belly the wind from the plane flying pushes you back further than if you were free flying. think of free flyers as exiting the door and falling more straight down off the hill. belly flyers are pushed farther out from the wind. so if a belly exit went after freeflyers. the freeflyers would go straight down while the belly flyer would exit seconds later but be pushed more and likely over the freeflyers.

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[eightate8at8 0]

I might be thinking of this backward.. So basically since belly has more relative wind, the hill isn't as long? Whereas ff's will have more forward movement on the hill?

[swoopfly 5]

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I might be thinking of this backward.. So basically since belly has more relative wind, the hill isn't as long? Whereas ff's will have more forward movement on the hill?

both groups (belly and ff) have the same relative wind, the same hill. but there body orientation determines how far the wind pushes them. so belly would be pushed back further from the same wind, but freeflyers exiting on the same hill are less affected by the wind because of there body postition.

[eightate8at8 0]

I gotcha, I was thinking of it backwards for some reason. Sorry to hijack your thread!

[Hellis 0]

you are correct.
i always make sure the new freefliers exit first when im on the load because of the risk you mention.
if you cant hold a sit from exit to deployment i think you should be considered as a belly flier.

also new freefliers are so focused on maintaining the sit that they might forget to look up or down for other jumpers.

[pilotdave 0]

Exit order should mainly be based on fallrate. Someone that is going to be going back and forth between belly and freeflying should exit after belly flyers and before freeflyers. You'd probably want to give that person extra exit separation too, since he'll probably be all over the sky. If I had the option, I'd want him out before me.

Wait, that pretty much describes me when I try to freefly. Get out after me.
All that stuff about the hill and throw from the plane and whatever is not really important when it comes to exit order.

Dave

[rehmwa 2]

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I might be thinking of this backward.. So basically since belly has more relative wind, the hill isn't as long? Whereas ff's will have more forward movement on the hill?

both groups (belly and ff) have the same relative wind, the same hill. but there body orientation determines how far the wind pushes them. so belly would be pushed back further from the same wind, but freeflyers exiting on the same hill are less affected by the wind because of there body postition.

it's a lot easier to tie in this concept with the other portions of group separation if you talk about it as "forward throw" or "penetration" rather than the "wind pushing them back"

no one goes back - just more or less forward throw

RW will have less throw - but I'd worry more about the total relative drift, and not just relative throw.

any separation thread goes into the details - Kallend is great on this and you can find his input on those same threads

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[champu 1]

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All that stuff about the hill and throw from the plane and whatever is not really important when it comes to exit order.

I think it can be non-trivial. Especially on a day with very light winds aloft and you get the 3-way "belly" group that funnels into a ball immediately followed by a 2-way "freefly" group that launches a train (which usually results in backflying out the door at only slightly over belly speeds.)

I'm not suggesting that freefliers get out before belly fliers if everyone on the load meets some pre-selected level of "suck", I'm just suggesting that if you see a belly group right before you funnel horribly or if you don't nail your freefly exits then you should wait an extra couple seconds between groups.

[virgin-burner 1]

we exit freefliers before bellyflyers..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[sebcat 0]

There was a freefall simulator posted here a while ago that depicted the whole thing in a very neat fashion. A search might bring it back to life.

Anyway, when you leave the aircraft you're traveling in the direction of flight, relative to the ground. Since the plane (and you) travels towards the wind, the wind will push you back, but you're still traveling "with the plane" at the beginning of the dive. The wind continues to push you back, and at a point during your dive, you'll cross the point of exit again (at a lower altitude of course), and continue to drift. The slower you fall, the more the wind acts upon you, the longer you'll drift. Big belly groups in formation falls slower (more drag I guess) than solo belly fliers, but when it comes to freeflyers, that's not necessarily true. Also, the whole thing changes if you're not exiting when the plane flies towards the wind... Unplanned downwind finals are not that good, I've noticed.

To gain horizontal separation, slow falling jumpers should exit first. So, it's pretty much down to fall rate*. Slow people before the fast people, and never trust vertical separation during opening. But then again, the lower you pull, the less chance of someone falling into your canopy during/after opening ;)

I guess the main point is: be aware. Although some people (tandem camera men in particular, I've noticed ) might not want you to wait a second (or three) in the door, having a chew on the ground afterwards is a lot better than being hit by someone during deployment. It's a fine line between fucking up their spot and risking improper separation.

*: Unless the free flyers are going head down at an angle, tracking unknowingly. And the belly flyers track in the line of flight. And a lot of other stuff that doesn't make you fall like a dead, stable object.

Oh, and hey Hellis. Didn't see you at the DZ yesterday.

[pilotdave 0]

It may have an effect on exit separation, but not exit order, in my opinion. But still, most of the time, it should be trivial. There may be exceptions... a perfectly executed 2-way head down exiting before a solo sit that goes out facing the relative wind, for example. The exit order should probably be swapped. But moreso because the head down group will fall faster than the solo sit.

But sure, there are other considerations when it comes to exit order. I just think people have a false impression of the importance of body position on exit compared to fallrate.

Dave

[swoopfly 5]

i think the bottom line is horizontal seperation is what matters nothing else.after you come off the hill all groups will eventually settle into a straight fall (no wind from the throw of the plane} Big to small belly groups first then big to small freefly groups last. The problem here in my post was the guy trying to freefly solo (because he is learning) and not really doing a freefly exit or even freeflying on the whole jump for that matter. on that exit he will be over you on deployment. i dont know about you but even a hundred feet horizontal seperation is to close for comfort.

[swoopfly 5]

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we exit freefliers before bellyflyers..

how many close calls have you guys had?

[pilotdave 0]

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The problem here in my post was the guy trying to freefly solo (because he is learning) and not really doing a freefly exit or even freeflying on the whole jump for that matter. on that exit he will be over you on deployment.

My point was that he should go first because he is going to fall slower, not because he's going to exit on his belly. We maximize separation at deployment by allowing the winds aloft to carry us away from each other. This requires the slower fallers to exit first (assuming jump run is into the wind). The time we leave between groups may need to be adjusted slightly for details like "throw." But I don't think you can reliably plan for that or adjust the exit order to maximize separation due to differences in throw.

Dave

[Hellis 0]

heres the stuff you are talking about: http://mypages.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/
its the Downloadable freefall modeling program for Windows that can simulate a jump.

look at the attached picture and you will see the result.
i also suggest reading the powerpoint presentation.

by the time i found out you guys were jumping it was too late to drive out there.
i had a feeling there was jumping going on when i was driving home from work since the weather was... almost good

[swoopfly 5]

My point was that he should go first because he is going to fall slower, not because he's going to exit on his belly.
Dave

[JohnDeere 0]

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If I had the option, I'd want him out before me.

+1 I have put solo "freeflyer's" out in front of 4 way's i have been on cause i didnt trust them. I know i will give enought time but question if they will considering there skill level. I have had 1 to many people snivel past me (20 Ft away) that exited after me

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[CSpenceFLY 1]

You are incorrect. Time/distance between exit and time in freefall drifting with the winds aloft determines separation. The difference in throw between a belly group and FF group does not amount to a hill of beans.


Edit to add the word distance because time between exits will differ with winds alot

[swoopfly 5]

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You are incorrect. Time/distance between exit and time in freefall drifting with the winds aloft determines separation. The difference in throw between a belly group and FF group does not amount to a hill of beans.


Edit to add the word distance because time between exits will differ with winds alot

so if there is no wind, what determines seperation?

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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You are incorrect. Time/distance between exit and time in freefall drifting with the winds aloft determines separation. The difference in throw between a belly group and FF group does not amount to a hill of beans.


Edit to add the word distance because time between exits will differ with winds alot

so if there is no wind, what determines seperation?

same as above. If there is no wind it doesn't matter who goes first as long as exit separation is sufficient.We stick to belly fliers first because there are few times when there is actually no wind.

Now,if you really want to get into a discussion we'll throw in a day when the winds aloft are running opposite directions at different altitudes.

Bottom line,you don't want to rely on the difference in forward throw to insure separation.

[pilotdave 0]

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when everyone comes off the hill they settle into a straight down fall.( dosent matter if your belly or FF your going down in the same direction just different speeds).therfore the hill is what causes the horizontal seperation.

This is true when there is absolutely no wind. I've seen light wind, but never in my life no wind. But like spence said, if there's really no wind, exit order doesn't matter as far as separation is concerned. If there's wind and you do a downwind jumprun, you want the fast fallers out first and the slow fallers out last.

I don't care how ya exit, I care how many seconds you're going to spend in freefall.

Dave

[swoopfly 5]

hey

well thanks for this discussion i definitely dont know everything and this can help me get a better idea on the subject. i just figured belly first freefliers last and the hill is what seperated the two, you would figure however the winds would affect the groups the same since they are on the same load.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

The wind does effect the groups the same. It's the total time in freefall that is different. because the belly flyers are in freefall longer they will drift farther. There were some drawings here somewhere if someone can find them.