dninness 4 #76 December 9, 2009 Quote Our dropzone supports the night jump qualification and everyone on the jump felt comfortable with the jump. Yeah, my first two night jumps were out of Bravo at Tecumseh, one of which was with a student rig because I was too freaked out that my PD230 was too "hot" (hahahaha.. Yeah..) I liked how it was always "hey, we're doing night jumps.." and folks didn't say "I'm afraid of the dark, can I get a night light in the plane?" Now all I hear is excuses: "Oh, uh, my mom is in town that night.. I think I left an iron on at home... Wow, look at the time, my wife said I have to be home when the street lights come on.." (Need to get my ass back to SE MI to visit the family and bring my rig...)NIN D-19617, AFF-I '19 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhanold 0 #77 December 9, 2009 Quote Yeah, my first two night jumps were out of Bravo at Tecumseh, one of which was with a student rig because I was too freaked out that my PD230 was too "hot" (hahahaha.. Yeah..) I liked how it was always "hey, we're doing night jumps.." and folks didn't say "I'm afraid of the dark, can I get a night light in the plane?" Now all I hear is excuses: "Oh, uh, my mom is in town that night.. I think I left an iron on at home... Wow, look at the time, my wife said I have to be home when the street lights come on.." (Need to get my ass back to SE MI to visit the family and bring my rig...) The majority of my night jumps are out of Bravo. I was talked into my first one and now I do the scheduling and briefing for them. I have to schedule them twice a year to meet demand. Usually 6 to 10 loads. You should definitely come for a visit! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #78 December 9, 2009 Quote>Under what circumstances would one "NEED" to land at night? Right - that's the same argument as the woman who insists she doesn't NEED to learn to parallel park (or drive on freeways, or cross large intersections.) Not a great idea IMO to leave those things out. Really really POOR analogy there. The absurdity of the night jump requirement is well illustrated by the very fact that it can be waived.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #79 December 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteNobody is arguing the wisdom of learning about and jumping at night. WoooHooo! That's good stuff to know! I'm certainly glad I learned about it and can practice it when opportunities arise. The question was about the need for it all. Kallend is right....there is no need. Maybe so; but then there's really no need for a D license, because almost always a C license + jump numbers is good enough for just about any kind of jumping at just about any DZ or boogie. That's (arguably) the difference between "experienced" and "expert". But if you want to formally hold yourself out as an "expert", you should demonstrate true expertise. . OK, in that case you should be required to do CRW, head down, sit fly, wingsuit, skysurf ... too, or how can you hold yourself out as an "expert"?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #80 December 9, 2009 Does anyone actually know why the night jump requirement was added in the first place? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #81 December 9, 2009 >Really really POOR analogy there. Why? Why can't a potential driver just decide she will never parallel park, or drive on freeways? >The absurdity of the night jump requirement is well illustrated by the >very fact that it can be waived. Most requirements can be waived. A few paraplegic jumpers who cannot jump on their own have gotten restricted licenses (basically restricting them to tandems.) I recall one jumper who got a D license after only 3 jumps; they basically waived everything. That doesn't mean that all requirements for any license are absurd. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dninness 4 #82 December 9, 2009 QuoteMost requirements can be waived. A few paraplegic jumpers who cannot jump on their own have gotten restricted licenses (basically restricting them to tandems.) I recall one jumper who got a D license after only 3 jumps; they basically waived everything. That doesn't mean that all requirements for any license are absurd. Hey, a blind skydiver can probably get some requirements waived, but depending on his level of blindness, ALL of his jumps might be night jumps...NIN D-19617, AFF-I '19 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UDSkyJunkie 0 #83 December 9, 2009 QuoteThe PRO requirements are to land; standing up, without running out, within a ten meter diameter circle on ten "declared" jumps. I have no disagreement with that. Great training for demos. I would say that the C accuracy requirement is more stringent than the PRO requirement. Yep... that'd even be an appropriate "C" requirement, really. A Ten-meter circle is pretty small. If you can hit 10 meters every time, it means you can put your canopy down in a space smaller than most people's front yard every time. Let's face it... if you are in a situation where you need to land in a space smaller than someone's front yard, you did something REALLY stupid, and your mad accuracy skills will only help you if you have a solid dose of luck to go with them. Anyone who's actually been in this situation *raises hand and points to self* will agree. Accuracy is a necessary, and I agree often overlooked, survival skill. Accuracy within 2 meters is irrelevant outside the context of accuracy or canopy piloting competition."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #84 December 9, 2009 Quote Does anyone actually know why the night jump requirement was added in the first place? Macho rite of passage, back in the days before anyone was thinking about the relevance of the criteria to the privileges granted by the license. There's not even a criterion for success in the night jump other than living to get the logbook signed. You could land in a tree on one and have a canopy collision and break both femurs on the second and still satisfy the requirement. The rule is unjustified and absurd. We'd do far better to concentrate on important skills like canopy control and tracking which affect both our own safety and the safety of those we jump with.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #85 December 9, 2009 If a requirement can be waived, it really wasn't necessary in the first place for the privileges granted by the license. If it WERE necessary, it shouldn't be waived.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grannyinthesky 0 #86 December 9, 2009 I was pretty much not thrilled with the idea of night jumps. My depth perception is pretty minimal in daylight, so I figured night jumps would be pretty tough for me to do. I was wondering if that was something you could get waived. Then I found myself doing night jumps this summer at West Plains Skydiving in WA. Rex, the dzo, was walkikng around asking who was going to to night jumps that night and I said something like "maybe, kinda, sorta... I'll give it a try." Somehow that turned into a yes and I found myself on the first night jump load at that dz. After I got out the door and discovered I could find the landing area, it was a great jump. The view of the area in the frull moon was terrific. And I discovered something sorta nice.... my depth perception at night wasn't any worse than in the daytime!! I manifested for my rw jump while I was packing. I really felt a sense of accomplishment for overcoming my trepidation about night jumps. Would I have done them if it hadn't been a requirement for gettting a D license (35 jumps away now)? Probably not and I would have missed out on some fantastic jumps. But I never would have considered falsifying my logbook to say I had done night jumps I hadn't done. "safety first... and What the hell..... safety second, Too!!! " ~~jmy POPS #10490 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #87 December 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteNobody is arguing the wisdom of learning about and jumping at night. WoooHooo! That's good stuff to know! I'm certainly glad I learned about it and can practice it when opportunities arise. The question was about the need for it all. Kallend is right....there is no need. Maybe so; but then there's really no need for a D license, because almost always a C license + jump numbers is good enough for just about any kind of jumping at just about any DZ or boogie. That's (arguably) the difference between "experienced" and "expert". But if you want to formally hold yourself out as an "expert", you should demonstrate true expertise. . OK, in that case you should be required to do CRW, head down, sit fly, wingsuit, skysurf ... too, or how can you hold yourself out as an "expert"? >CRW Sure. One could unexpectedly find oneself closer to a canopy than one plans on almost any skydive. And occasionally, more experienced jumpers deliberately maneuver themselves close to the canopies of other jumpers who are/may be in trouble, etc. I wouldn't mind some CRW proficiency being a requirement for a C or even B license, as part of overall canopy piloting proficiency. >head down, sit fly, Sure. Proficiency in all 3 freefall axes, in order to call yourself an expert? I have no problem with that. >wingsuit, skysurf No, because unless you're doing a dedicated wingsuit or skysurf jump, there's no possibility of needing the skill on any given skydive. Having said that: increasingly advanced tracking skills for each level of license? Why not? Now then - some countries have licenses higher than D; they have E or even F. Maybe wingsuiting and skysurfing could get you an E. Landing a wingsuit can get you an F. Then there's BASE. 1,000 BASE jumps would get you busted back down to A. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #88 December 9, 2009 QuoteI was pretty much not thrilled with the idea of night jumps. My depth perception is pretty minimal in daylight, so I figured night jumps would be pretty tough for me to do. I was wondering if that was something you could get waived. Just curious - is there something you personally want to do that requires a D license which you would not be permitted to do with only your C? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grannyinthesky 0 #89 December 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteI was pretty much not thrilled with the idea of night jumps. My depth perception is pretty minimal in daylight, so I figured night jumps would be pretty tough for me to do. I was wondering if that was something you could get waived. Just curious - is there something you personally want to do that requires a D license which you would not be permitted to do with only your C? I'm not sure, but don't you need a D to get a pro-rating? The idea of being an almost 60 woman who could jump at demos is a pretty enticing idea."safety first... and What the hell..... safety second, Too!!! " ~~jmy POPS #10490 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
buff 0 #90 December 9, 2009 I have 6 or 7 night jumps in my book so far and I love jumping at night. I've done them with a full moon and no moon but the thing I've found is that you always plan the load. No zoo jumps. If the plan is 2 two-ways with points, then you don't ever change it to a 4 way on the way up. No moon and a strobe goes out, you plan for it. Maybe that is why the requirement still exits. It's an extraordinary jump that requires different planning. So you need a D to go PRO and the night jumps demonstrate your planning to the HQ gods? I'm just guessing but I do know they are a heck of alot of fun.It's called the Hillbilly Hop N Pop dude. If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough. That's fucked up. Watermelons do not grow on trees! ~Skymama Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #91 December 9, 2009 >If a requirement can be waived, it really wasn't necessary in the first place for >the privileges granted by the license. Requirements are required (hence the name) for a given license. If they are waived, the jumper receives a restricted license that denotes his limitations. This is done for driver's licenses as well; drivers who need glasses to see are limited to driving with their glasses on, for example. It would be absurd to claim that therefore adequate vision isn't necessary to get a driver's license. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #92 December 9, 2009 Quote Does anyone actually know why the night jump requirement was added in the first place? not certain,,why.... though i DO think Night jumps should be relished, and Not discouraged..... I have totally ENJOYED each of the 26 night jumps which i've made over the years... it is SO surreal.. something about skydiving, in the dark,, which is pretty cool , to me at least...One GOOD reason to encourage everyone to experience a night jump. would be ... ... those late day "sunset" jumps,, where it takes a bit longer to board, or the 'hot-fuel' took a while,,, or ATC holds up the jumprun for a few minutes,, OR clouds slid in about the time the the Sun settled well below the horizen,,, and NOW.. here is a full load, getting out,,,, and suddenly finding that it's no longer daytime out there.... In that scenario it's very helpful to have made a few night jumps,,,, so that one's confidence level is good, and so that jumpers in that situation of low light,,, can maintain their composure, in order to perform a safe landing... landing after sunset, can be trying,,, unless one has already experienced it... otherwise.. could be best to bite the bullet,,,( loss of a lift ticket ) and ride the plane down.... jt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 173 #93 December 9, 2009 Do you still need a "D" to compete in the open class at Nationals? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #94 December 9, 2009 QuoteDo you still need a "D" to compete in the open class at Nationals? No USPA Skydiver’s Competition Manual 1-1.4 Hold a currently valid USPA/FAI license for the appropriate discipline and event as follows: a. Freefall Style, Accuracy Landing and Vertical Formation Skydiving: C License b. Canopy Formation: (1) 2-way B License (2) 4- and 8-way C License c. Formation Skydiving (1) Intermediate and Advanced Classes B License (2) Open Class C License (3) 10- and 16-Way B License d. Artistic Events (1) Intermediate: B License (2) Open: C License e. Canopy Piloting (1) Advanced Class C License and at least 500 high-performance landings total including a minimum of 100 high-performance landings in the last 12 months. (2) Open Class C License and at least 1,000 high-performance landings total including a minimum of 150 highperformance landings in the last 12 months.The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hymandd732 0 #95 December 9, 2009 I made the first jump in 1965. Eight years later after about 750 jumps I gave up logging but now after thirty five more years knocking around the 'Sport" I really enjoy getting out those old log books and reading about times with jumpers, some of which are in eternal freefall. It is a diary, no more, no less. When used for establishing license requirements it just relies on someone's honesty. If yu elect to log jumps many years from now you will be rewarded with many a chuckle and perhaps a sigh.Freefall Hall Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #96 December 9, 2009 Quote >>But if you want to formally hold yourself out as an >>"expert", you should demonstrate true expertise. . >wingsuit, skysurf No, because unless you're doing a dedicated wingsuit or skysurf jump, there's no possibility of needing the skill on any given skydive. . So now you're changing your tune from demonstrating true expertise to needing a skill. How exactly does that reasoning NOT apply to night jumps? If you're not jumping at night or jumping during a total eclipse (both of which are predictable events), there's no possibility of needing the skill on any given skydive.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #97 December 9, 2009 Quote Quote Does anyone actually know why the night jump requirement was added in the first place? not certain,,why.... though i DO think Night jumps should be relished, and Not discouraged..... Flawed logic. Not requiring a night jump is NOT the same as discouraging night jumps. No one has suggested discouraging night jumps. Quote I have totally ENJOYED each of the 26 night jumps which i've made over the years... it is SO surreal.. something about skydiving, in the dark,, which is pretty cool , to me at least...One GOOD reason to encourage everyone to experience a night jump. would be ... ... those late day "sunset" jumps,, where it takes a bit longer to board, or the 'hot-fuel' took a while,,, or ATC holds up the jumprun for a few minutes,, OR clouds slid in about the time the the Sun settled well below the horizen,,, and NOW.. here is a full load, getting out,,,, and suddenly finding that it's no longer daytime out there.... FLAWED LOGIC again. The FLAW in that argument is that a "D" license is NOT required to manifest for a sunset load.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #98 December 9, 2009 So, if I might ask Kallend, why do you think the night jumps are a requirement? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 291 #99 December 9, 2009 Quote Just curious - is there something you personally want to do that requires a D license which you would not be permitted to do with only your C? I got my D when it was a requirement for getting a permit to jump off of El Capitan. Other than the written, I'd already completed the requirements years earlier. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #100 December 9, 2009 QuoteSo, if I might ask Kallend, why do you think the night jumps are a requirement? Macho rite of passage dating back decades.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
