Malfunction Inqury

[Skyguy1977 0]

So I was wondering about a specific malfunction and how to handle it if I were ever posed with the problem. What is the correct procedure to follow if you deploy your main canopy with no problems, and upon descent, at about 1000', the brake handle knot breaks free of the grommet and you have no control of the brake line for one side of your canopy? Do you ditch the main or try to land with your risors? Has anyone been in this situation before?

I'm very curious on how to handle this.

[swoopfly 5]

well you only have two options that i see, cutaway and straight to reserve or land using your rears. while lots of people have cutaway as low as 1000 feet, i probably would not. If i was in that situation, i would keep my canopy and ride the rears on landing with a good plf. This is the reason for your control checks after the canopy has opened and you still have plenty of altitude for a cutaway.
Practice flares, turns..inspect your canopy.

[timbre 0]

It's really not very difficult to land on your risers, so the question is a little silly -- just drop both toggles and land on your risers. (BASE jumpers apparently practice landing with one toggle and one riser....I wouldn't try it). Practice some rear riser flares sometime (at altitude) sometime so that you've done it and know where the stall point is. Also PLF.

That said, the implied "can I cut away at 1000 feet" is an interesting one....A quick search brings up a previous thread on this already: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=126353;page=1;mh=-1;;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC

[CSpenceFLY 1]

No, the question is not silly

[timbre 0]

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No, the question is not silly

Yah, my bad... Silly was the wrong word. I meant that the answer was (in my mind) pretty straightforward. If I'd really thought it a silly question, I wouldn't have bothered to write an answer.

[mik 2]

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It's really not very difficult to land on your risers, so the question is a little silly

I know quite a few people with a LOT more jumps than the original poster who have never landed on rear risers, and would probably not agree with this comment (that it is not very difficult).

***********************************************
I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example

[Andy9o8 0]

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well you only have two options that i see, cutaway and straight to reserve or land using your rears.

There's also a 3rd option: canopy transfer. I'm not necessarily advocating it, I'm simply noting that the technique exists.

[swoopfly 5]

i have practiced landing on rears once, it not hard but you either pound the ground hard from not flaring enough or stall your canopy and still probably make a thud. Either way you will need to plf. most swoopers use rears to land but they tranisition to there toggles before the swoop is over. i dont think anyone really uses straight rears for landing, unless you were in this situation.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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It's really not very difficult to land on your risers, so the question is a little silly

I know quite a few people with a LOT more jumps than the original poster who have never landed on rear risers, and would probably not agree with this comment (that it is not very difficult).

I would agree. The first time I landed on rears I had a broken steering line, I almost broke both my legs. I would agree it is not difficult but it should be practised in a low stress situation.

[Skyguy1977 0]

I've never attempted a riser only landing so I wasn't sure it had enough flaring power to bring me down safely. I've played with it rather high up, but since there is no vertical reference, I can't tell how much of the vertical descent is changing.

The other thought that crossed my mind is, is there a point where the wing loading on your canopy changes the glide ratio to the point where a riser landing is not safe?

Oh, and thanks for all the information!

[davelepka 4]

The short answer is to land on with your rear risers, and others have suggested that it's not that hard to do. However, there are a couple of things to think about if the situation should ever arise.

The first is your steering line length. The correct length for a steering line is such that the stall point is as far down as you can possibly reach. With the lines adjusted to this length, they will be long enough that when your toggles are all the way up, there will be no tension on the steering lines, and it will not effect the tail of the canopy. It should be such that the first few inches of toggle stroke don't even effect the tail, they just take up the slack in the lines.

The reason is this, if your lines are too short (which many are), you have several problems. In normal flight, if the tail is deflected when the toggles are all the way up, your canopy is not in true 'full flight', and not flying as fast as it should. This lower airspeed in 'full lfight' will translate into less flare power when you go to land.

Another problem with short brake line is that the stall point ends up higher than 'as far down as you can reach'. What this means is that you can more easily stall your canopy, and if you accidentally flare down to, or past, the stall point, your canopy will dump on your back. When the stall point is porperly set, you have to make an intentional effort to reach that far down, and you are unlikely to do this accidentally while landing.

As it applies to your situation, if your brake lines are too short, and deflecting the tail, when one breaks, it will release the tail on that side and create a turn in the direciton of the remaining brake line. Remember, it's still pulling it's half of the tail down, but without the other side to balance it, instead of producing a slower 'full flight', it's now causing a turn. As such, you will need to hold constant pressure on the opposite riser to make the canopy fly straight.

Which brings me to my next point, rear riser landings are easy IF you have practiced them before, and your canopy is flying straight to begin with. The rear riser stroke from full flight to stall is very short, maybe 6 or 8 inches. If you are using half of that just to make the canopy fly straight, you are going to have an even shorter flare stroke on that side, and going to have to do different things with each hand when you go to flare. One will be a full stroke riser flare, the other will be a half stroke. On top of this, you're doing a rear riser landing, which even in the best circumstance is not what you're used to. Not only is a different type of landing, but you have a canopy that won't fly straight, and a broken steering line to screw up your head and stop you from thinking clearly.

Sooooo, what we do is this - we make sure our steering lines are set correctly. We do this by looking at them our next jump, and with the toggles all the way up, we see the lines have some rearward bow to them (this is the slack in the lines being blown back by the wind of the canopy flying forward. We also stall the canopy, and make sure it takes a good 'reach' to make it happen. If the lines are too short, or too long (if you cannot stall it), have a rigger adjust them for you. Generally about 2" to 3" at most, then jump and re-check them. Continue until they are correct. Re-check every 50 jumps or so.

Next we work on rear riser ladnings. Start by using the rear risers at altitude, doing turns and some practice flares. You'll also need to stall the canopy with the rear risers, so you know what not to do close to the ground. Just pull them down evenly, and slowly, until the canopy stalls and them ease them back up. Do this several times, and you'll begin to feel the stall before it occurs. Remember this feeling for when you're actually landing with the rears.

You can practice actual rear riser landings, but make sure you pick a day with some moderate, steady winds, and that you feel mentally ready and are confident in your abilities. Whatever happens, don't revert back to a toggle style flare where you pull your hands down to your waist. The canopy will quickly stall and dump you on the ground.

All of the above is assuming that you are jumping a canopy appropriate for your skill level. Too high of a wing loading will make all of the above manuvers and lessons that much harder. It will also make the price of a mistake that much higher.

One last point, you might also find yourself with only one toggle if you break a steering line. This usually happens on opening, where you will be high enough to cut away and open your reserve. However, a clean reserve deployment is not guaranteed, and if that canopy mals, your fucked. If your canopy is set-up porperly, and you have taken the time to teach yourself how to handle your canopy with the rear risers, a cutaway due to a broken steering line is not needed. Simply fly it down and land it. Then learn to pack better so a hard opening doesn't snap a steering line, or maintain your equipment better so you're not jumping with worn line prone to breaking.

That also goes for your toggle falling off your steering line. A properly fastened toggle will not fall off the steering line, and any wear, or loosening of the knot would reveal itself in a regular inspection of your rig long before it actually fell off. Remember to look your rig over aftrer every jump, and more completely after each weekend. It's your ass on the line.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

The one I landed was loaded at 1.7 , I would say the type and size would be more of a factor. Larger/student type canopies being easier, smaller/higher performance canopies more critical on the stall.

If I had to land mine again I'd come in with extra speed so I could plane out and slide in.

[davelepka 4]

Just to follow up on the questions that were posted while I was typing -

Rear riser landings can be made with any canopy, and can be soft, non-PLF landings if you have practiced it. All canopies are capable of it, it's up to the jumper to make it happen.

The extremely short stroke of the rear riser from full flight to stall is why people think it's so tricky. They are used to a 2 1/2 foot toggle stroke for a flare, and are not used to the fine-touch required to fly the rear risers. Again, it's just a matter of practice to become familiar with that type of input.

Again, with that said, be careful when you start actually trying to land with the rears. Make sure the weather conditions are right (you want some wind, and it needs to be steady) and that you personally feel good about the situation. Be ready to abort the riser landing if anything goes off-plan. Changing wind conditions, traffic conflict, or just a last minute lack of confidence are all great reasons to bail out and use your toggles. Wait until everything else is in your favor, THEN add the challenge of a rear riser landing.

The longer you wait to learn these skills, the greater the chance you will break a line or have another situation arise where you could use a rear riser landing, but you are not preparred.

Oh yeah, remember to always PLF when tyring new things on landing.

[dragon2 0]

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Rear riser landings can be made with any canopy

There are a few canopies which I really really wouldn't want to land on rears, my previous PdF Springo 120, for one. That canopy will stall so easily and so abruptly on rears, when I did a canopy control course jumping that springo I was 'forbidden' to even try a RR landing with it, while newbies (

With a Springo, at 1000ft, I might consider a canopy transfer while I would not jumping just about anything else. Then again, I knew I stopped jumping that Springo for a reason

I'm sure there's other canopies that might be pretty dangerous to land using rears (the old PdF Merit comes to mind, which like the Springo is a very flat trimmed canopy with low turbulence and RR tolerance), so definitely try to RR 'flare' up high with a new canopy before you need (or try) it for real!

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[davelepka 4]

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There are a few canopies which I really really wouldn't want to land on rears, my previous PdF Springo 120, for one. That canopy will stall so easily and so abruptly on rears, when I did a canopy control course jumping that springo I was 'forbidden' to even try a RR landing with it,

Indeed, the exception to every rule.

At higher WL, or smaller canopies, the diffuculty will go up, but if you read the part of the post about flying the right canopy for your skill level, you'll see that anyoen flying smaller or highly loaded canopies should already know how to use the rears, and be able to figure out a new-to-them canopy on their own.

My point was more to the newer jumpers, like the OP, who don't know about rear risers.

Besides, your talking about French canopies, what do you expect? Everyone knows if you want a real canopy, it's PD all the way.... (not a joke, but kind of a joke, but not).

[dragon2 0]

Most of the French canopies are ... different ... yeah. PD isn't the holy grail either though: sabre 1 slammers, sabre 2 slammers/spinners, vengeance spinners... Everyone makes mistakes sometimes

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[davelepka 4]

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Most of the French canopies are ... different

I was just kidding about the PDF stuff. Actually, I think the only reason those canopies stall so quickly on the rears is the shallow trim they all have. Great for gliding home, but shitty on the rears. The angle of attack is so shallow to begin with, there's very little riser deflection needed to hit the stall.

I'm pretty sure if you trimmed one steeper, you could get more travel, and thus more feel, out of the rear risers. Of course, then it would open like crap and need a different slider, but this is all just theoretical anyway.

[kuai43 7]

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well you only have two options that i see, cutaway and straight to reserve or land using your rears.

There's also a 3rd option: canopy transfer. I'm not necessarily advocating it, I'm simply noting that the technique exists.

Don't forget a 4th option - the reverse Mr. Bill. Simply find the nearest jumper under canopy, dock, and cling like a leech. Not necessarily advocating it....

Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

[kuai43 7]

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i have practiced landing on rears once, it not hard but you either pound the ground hard from not flaring enough or stall your canopy and still probably make a thud. Either way you will need to plf. most swoopers use rears to land but they tranisition to there toggles before the swoop is over. i dont think anyone really uses straight rears for landing, unless you were in this situation.

Not exactly true. The last few dozen landings I've done have been almost solely on rears and I've never stalled it and have yet to "pound it". Many of the landings are fast, but most are easily stood up, even with a bit of a slide. All it takes is being willing to bring it in fast. If you do some down-wind landings with toggles, you'll get used to the speed before landing on rears. I jump a Stiletto 150 and usually have a double-front, or 90/180 front riser initiation to kick things off, so there's a little bit of additional speed to deal with - deliberately. IMHO, the key to having the confidence in the control input is playing with your canopy up high. I've invested many high pulls (all the way) just because I love flying my canopy. If you use all your control inputs regularly - fronts, rears, harness, toggles, when it comes time to HAVE to do it, the reactions will come automatically.
You can't be scared of your canopy - fly the damn thing like you love it.

Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

[SafetyNate 0]

One thought that seems to get left out of these conversations is that if you break a steering line, there is nothing left to hold the tail. If both steering line broke, when you pull on the rear risers, The tail can invert. This will change the way it flys. It is good practice to fly and flare with your rears, but, when the poop hits the prop, it will flare different when the line is broken.

During a rear riser flare with the steering lines intact, as you pull the rears, you also pull the steering lines and the tail cant invert. With out them, you might not be so lucky. Practice high before deciding to land.

The first jump course teaches do not cut away below 1000 feet. So, if you are unsure of whether it is landable at 1000 feet, quit wasting time and pull the handles.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Good Point

[tkhayes 126]

first, you checked your brake lines EVERY pack job and your toggle attachments to make sure they were done right.

Therefore you PREVENT that malfunction from happening.

A steering toggle coming off during flight is 99.9% a human error thing and is preventable. And I have seen it only once in my entire career. Sadly the pilot was badly injured and no longer skydives

Land with the rear risers if you are too low to chop - you have no choice right?

[SafetyNate 0]

I have witnessed 2 toggles coming off. Both bc they were ONLY finger trapped. Not tied or stitched. One was on a VELO 90 and released half way through the swoop 2 feet off the ground. No injury. the other was while walking back in and the girl thought it was funny thet her toggle fell off.

I have seen one other that was finger trapped only and almost off. A few months ago a friend showed me his steering line that was cut 3/4 threw as a result of a grommet on his toggle with a sharp edge. That one was really hard to see. I looked almost normal from the outside bc it was cutting through on the inside. Not a bad idea to loosen the larks head on the toggle and look where it touches the grommet for wear.

That is a total of 2 that came off and 2 that almost came off in my little experiences. That leads me to think it is a pretty common and preventable situation.

[popsjumper 2]

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It's really not very difficult to land on your risers, so the question is a little silly

I know quite a few people with a LOT more jumps than the original poster who have never landed on rear risers, and would probably not agree with this comment (that it is not very difficult).

Well, that's probably because they've never done it.

You guys should be listening to davelepka...he's spelled it all out for you in plain English.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[murps2000 86]

BASE jumpers apparently practice landing with one toggle and one riser....I wouldn't try it..***

I've jumped at least one canopy that I would rather land this way than on both rears, unless maybe it was really windy. I've practiced it a few times up high, and I'm sure I can make it work. It feels strange with your hands at way different heights trying to keep the canopy level while flaring. You definitely have to cognitively overrule your muscle memory.

With that said, my DZ.com advice to anyone else would be the same as that for a canopy transfer. It might be what I would do in certain situations, but don't you ever try it.

It's really better to maintain your gear and pack carefully, anyway.