Canopy question: Brake position

[Mockingbird 0]

How does brake position affect glide ratio when:
holding,
running,
and crabbing?

I've looked in The Skydiver's Handbook for the answer to this question, but I can't find one.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[mnealtx 0]

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How does brake position affect glide ratio when:
holding,
running,
and crabbing?

I've looked in The Skydiver's Handbook for the answer to this question, but I can't find one.

*General disclaimer: Any advice given should be verified with your instructors!*

The answer I've come up with from reading and my limited experience is.... it depends. One canopy might get it's best glide in 1/4 brakes...another may need no brakes and the rear risers spread 6 inches.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Mockingbird 0]

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How does brake position affect glide ratio when:
holding,
running,
and crabbing?

I've looked in The Skydiver's Handbook for the answer to this question, but I can't find one.

The answer I've come up with from reading and my limited experience is.... it depends. One canopy might get it's best glide in 1/4 brakes...another may need no brakes and the rear risers spread 6 inches.

What I'm looking for is a general principle. Such as:

When holding, half-brakes has such-and-such effect on glide ratio.
When holding, toggles all the way up have such-and-such effect on glide ratio.

When running, half-brakes has such-and-such effect on glide ratio.
When running, toggles all the way up have such-and-such effect on glide ratio.

When crabbing, half-brakes has such-and-such effect on glide ratio.
When crabbing, toggles all the way up have such-and-such effect on glide ratio.

I hope this question even makes sense.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[Stumpy 256]

This should give some answers

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=805354;search_string=half%20brakes;#805354

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[mnealtx 0]

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How does brake position affect glide ratio when:
holding,
running,
and crabbing?

I've looked in The Skydiver's Handbook for the answer to this question, but I can't find one.

The answer I've come up with from reading and my limited experience is.... it depends. One canopy might get it's best glide in 1/4 brakes...another may need no brakes and the rear risers spread 6 inches.

What I'm looking for is a general principle. Such as:

When holding, half-brakes has such-and-such effect on glide ratio.
When holding, toggles all the way up have such-and-such effect on glide ratio.

When running, half-brakes has such-and-such effect on glide ratio.
When running, toggles all the way up have such-and-such effect on glide ratio.

When crabbing, half-brakes has such-and-such effect on glide ratio.
When crabbing, toggles all the way up have such-and-such effect on glide ratio.

I hope this question even makes sense.

Again, let me state that you should ask your instructors about this. This is something that should be getting covered in your instruction on canopy flight, in my opinion.

I *DID* understand what you meant, and a search will find you lots of threads on this type of question. Brian Germain's The Parachute and It's Pilot has a lot of great information on canopy flight.

In my prior skydiving life, I jumped two different canopies - both were within about 10 square feet size of each other.

With one canopy, running in half brakes would cause the canopy to float and get more distance. With the other canopy, half brakes caused enough sink that I actually got LESS distance running that I would have in full flight.

That is why I said (again) that one blanket rule doesn't necessarily fit everthing, and that you need to (*SAFELY*) experiment with YOUR canopy and ask your instructors.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Avion 0]

Generally:

1) If you are flying down wind, more brakes equals more glide.

2) If you are flying up wind, more brakes equals less glide.

This is canopy dependent. Sometimes canopies will glide farther downwind until a certain point then glide less with futher application of brakes. You have to experiement using the accruacy trick with the canopy you fly in order to learn how it reacts in this respect.

This is one of the excersized in Scott Miller's canopy course.

Cheers

[riggerrob 563]

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Generally:

1) If you are flying down wind, more brakes equals more glide.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This works because your canopy is exposed to the winds aloft for an extra minute or two.

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[billvon 2,476]

In general:

When upwind, some brakes will help you cover more distance.

When downwind, they will generally hurt you.

In no wind, either very light brakes or rear risers can help.

[Mockingbird 0]

Thanks; this is what I was looking for. But what about crosswind?

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[Mockingbird 0]

See question above.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[Jeth 0]

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In general:

When upwind, some brakes will help you cover more distance.

When downwind, they will generally hurt you.

In no wind, either very light brakes or rear risers can help.

Ok, just so I'm 100% clear, when you say "when upwind", you mean if you are currently upwind, and are therefore travelling with the wind, right? So then if I am currently downwind, and trying to get back, flying into the wind, I do not want to use brakes? Or do I have it backwards?

Thanx for clarifying.

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[kelpdiver 2]

yep, you have it right.

If the jump run is always into the wind, upwind = long and downwind = short, but you probably have already found that this isn't always the case.

[billvon 2,476]

>But what about crosswind?

Directly crosswind is similar to being downwind in a lighter wind. Same tricks apply.

[EvilLurker 2]

From my experience, if you're downwind, the best technique for getting back is no brakes and get your leg straps up under your thighs, keep your arms in tight and lean back to make your body area as small as possible for minimum wind resistance. I've tried front risers to increase forward drive, but I think it was a losing situation, since it seemed the descent rate went up more than the forward drive speed aided me. I think a collapsible pilot chute will help you out a lot in this situation, too.

[Avion 0]

I see how this can be confusing, so edited for clarity:

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Generally:

1) If you are >>> upwind of your target, and are <<< flying downwind, more brakes equals more glide.

2) If you are >>> downwind of your target, and are <<< flying upwind, more brakes equals less glide.

Cheers

[Avion 0]

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From my experience, if you're downwind, the best technique for getting back is no brakes and get your leg straps up under your thighs, keep your arms in tight and lean back to make your body area as small as possible for minimum wind resistance.

That's also what Scott said in his canopy course, getting small as possible helps.

Cheers

[Mockingbird 0]

Thanks, everyone. The info you've given is what I was looking for. I found certain statements about it in extinuating circumstances, but I couldn't find the general principle.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[mjosparky 3]

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From my experience,

And just what is your experience?

Sparky

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My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[EvilLurker 2]

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And just what is your experience?

My experience flying lightly loaded canopies in windy conditions. What part of it do you feel is in error? Or are you implying I don't have any experience?

[livenletfly 0]

ive had to use front risers to penetrate high winds more than once. dont forget about fronts. they got me home and everyone else on my dive using other controls landed off. in med winds rears are you best buddy. they flatten the canopys attack angle. this helps in 2 ways. 1. decreases decent rate, 2. decreases amount of canopy presenting into the wind. helps cut threw the wind. when you apply brakes yes your decreasing decent but increasing the amount of area catching wind. o and definatly get small this helps a bunch!

>

[DeNReN 0]

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And just what is your experience?

My experience flying lightly loaded canopies in windy conditions. What part of it do you feel is in error? Or are you implying I don't have any experience?

His Q is valid.......I have experiance flying lighty loaded canopies in windy conditions also....but as you look to the left at my jump numbers......you will see that I have very few jumps and am not qualified to give advise(even though I do at times )....but having my REAL numbers posted tells people to take anything I say with a grain of salt.

[EvilLurker 2]

From what I've read here, you should take anything posted with a grain of salt. Don't fall into the trap that high jump numbers equals good advice, ot that low jump numbers equals bad advice. I don't respond to posts unless I have had a similar experience or know the answer. You'll notice I don't come off as a "skygod" making statements that I put forth as gospel. I will challenge people's posts that I disagree with and ask questions, and it doesn't matter how many jumps they have. If you see me posting BS, call me on it, please.
His Q is valid in what way? More of the "I have a few more jumps than you so I'm the expert"? He never did say what the problem was with my advice, so I suspect it was a decent set of techniques. Notice I said "in my experience" "I think" and "it seemed"? Things written like that you take with a grain of salt. I didn't say "always", "you must" and "never". I will add that some canopies most likely will get you back upwind better using front risers while others will not. You'll have to figure that one out on your own, none of the ones I jumped had a longer reach using fronts, but I see the possibility. I'm no longer a USPA member, so I'll leave the personal info blank for now, if that's alright.
I have a significant amount of time flying powered parachutes, too. That's probably worth something in the canopy control department. Time equivalent to several thousand jumps worth of canopy time. Take that with a grain of salt, too, if you like.

[DeNReN 0]

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From what I've read here, you should take anything posted with a grain of salt. Don't fall into the trap that high jump numbers equals good advice, ot that low jump numbers equals bad advice.

Very much agreed.

What.....your not gona post your SSN and mothers maiden name now??? damn

My intent was not to insult nor acuse you of bad advise..actually....I've seen nothing to call BS on you.....but some point of referance for experiance is nice to know....I do believe thats what Sparky was getting at........are you a intellegent 100 jump wonder....or a seasoned vet?

The Q still stands......what is your experiance level??

BTW...a powered parachute is a completely different beast........there are similarities for sure(I've never flow one but would love to)....but again...completly different in many aspects....I do believe they are closer to a paraglider then a parachute.

Sorry for the thread hijack

[EvilLurker 2]

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.I do believe they are closer to a paraglider then a parachute.

Well, it was a 500 sq. ft. 11 cell PD canopy with a 52 HP Rotax, and if you kill the power it's exactly like flying a tandem with a high wing loading, except you're steering with your feet. With 2 people it had a suspended weight of around 600 lbs. Under power, it's very easy to fly, but you learn a lot about ram-air parachute operation flying it around. If you fly one, watch for power lines (and that's GOOD advice)
Solo, I could climb at over 800 ft/min. You steer with your feet instead of your hands, but the steering line pressure is so brutal you have to. I could grab the steering lines and flare/turn, but if you're flying cross-wind you need to use your legs, because your arms will give out. I never flew a paraglider, no idea how that is. Probably a hell of a lot of fun, though.
I'd say there's no difference between flying a powered parachute with the engine off and a tandem of similar size, except you can screw the landing up a lot worse and walk away.

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What.....your not gona post your SSN and mothers maiden name now??? damn

I'm not gonna post anything, and if they don't like it, they can kick me off the site. How's that?

[mjosparky 3]

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And just what is your experience?

My experience flying lightly loaded canopies in windy conditions. What part of it do you feel is in error? Or are you implying I don't have any experience?

What part of the question don't you understand? It was a simple question. I did not question your knowledge or experience, merely asked what your experience was. Without something to go by, you are just a noise in the dark. If you wish to remain anonymous that’s just fine but your advise is not much good to the newer jumper that might be able to benefit from it. Jmo

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals