DigitalDave 0 #1 February 21, 2010 Curious what this malfunction is. My newbie eyes tell me the main pin is extracted without the ripcord/hackey being pulled (or however they do it on tandems). I'm guessing it's from the bridle coming out and pulling out the bag ? Unfortunately, the video doesn't show how he handled it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHV2mr0EYqM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NovaTTT 1 #2 February 21, 2010 It's technically a horseshoe malfunction, caused by the main bag escaping the container while the drogue is still attached. It might also be called an entanglement (main v drogue). It's not shown, but I'll bet the TI pulled the drogue release, the cutaway and the reserve handles, in that sequence."Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #3 February 21, 2010 Horseshoe mal. Premature release of main pin before release of the drogue. I am not a TI but my guess is that the EP is to release the drogue, cutaway, reserve, land, pummell packer, change underwear.The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #4 February 21, 2010 Its a Strong tandem system. Tandem malfunctions can be very different then what you have learned in AFF for a sport jump. That is an out of sequence deployment on a tandem system. There is a drogue release that also allows the drogue to open the main container. The container can open before the drogue is release. You see the results. Typically when that happens a heads up video guy would let you know, so you can release the drogue. Many times that situation is solved by releasing the drogue then chopping the ball-o-crap. This is prevented a couple of ways. Firstly, a stable exit helps, thus preventing putting the main back tray directly into the relative wind. Secondly, a modern tandem design like the Sigma, for all practical purposes, eliminated that malfunction. If the main container opens on the sigma, it releases the drogue.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NovaTTT 1 #5 February 21, 2010 QuoteIts a Strong tandem system. (snip) This is prevented a couple of ways. Firstly, a stable exit helps, thus preventing putting the main back tray directly into the relative wind. Secondly, a modern tandem design like the Sigma, for all practical purposes, eliminated that malfunction. If the main container opens on the sigma, it releases the drogue. This appears to me to be caused a broken lower closing loop. That's a packing error, although a proper gear check should have caught it also. That being said, it's interesting because the DH has the secondary closing loop. Maybe a worn primary loop on this rig wasn't the only thing missed. Maybe the secondary closing loop isn't a robust enough design. I'm not familiar with the history of the in-field functioning success of the design. But the DH is a good system, modern or not. Any system, if poorly maintained, becomes a bad system."Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #6 February 21, 2010 i WAS a video guy who found himself in that SAME situtation.... back about 9 years ago.....Decent exit.. normal drogue deployment,,,, a second TM, in freefall with the pair flew in and docked.. We were at about 10 grand... I was head on to the TM who was slightly 'head high', when i SAW the dark colored main D bag pop up over his shoulder and start dancing around...the 3rd jumper was facing me, and i don't think he noticed it.... The TM must not have felt anything, as the skydive was continuing along... I parked in front and slightly above,, and did a real obvious wave OFF.. then started going strong toward my main handle with my right hand while pointing aggressively to the TM with my left.....i was trying to say.."YOU need to PULL".. the d release handle.. By this time 3 or 4 line stows had undone and the bag was really bouncing around.. he "got" what i was saying and pulled around 8 grand... decent main opening, only with about 4 or 5 line twists,,, which DID clear...no need for a cutaway... uneventful landing... eventful video. not sure if he scraped the top of the door on exit,, dislodging the cable which held the container closed.. strong h/c system... At no time did i consider 'flying in to them' to 'assist', though things might have been different , had he NOT understood my signal to pull..... luckily the main stayed contained in the D bag, til AFTER the TM pulled...it was good that we had altitude on our side.. jmy A 3914 d 12122 4 stack 930 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #7 February 21, 2010 Quote I parked in front and slightly above,, and did a real obvious wave OFF.. then started going strong toward my main handle with my right hand while pointing aggressively to the TM with my left.....i was trying to say.."YOU need to PULL".. Nice job, Jimmy. Thanks.I was thinking, if I was that 2nd TM swooping the tandem, I think I would have pulled them out if I saw that bag leave like that. Was he in the picture at the time? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #8 February 21, 2010 QuoteI parked in front and slightly above,, and did a real obvious wave OFF.. then started going strong toward my main handle with my right hand while pointing aggressively to the TM with my left..... i was trying to say.."YOU need to PULL" This is why I'm not a fan of full face helmets or jumping in sunglasses (at least in a working environment). Being able to make eye contact, and for the TI to see your facial expression is what turns the pull signal from just pointing at the guy into the pull signal. No offence to TIs, but I would guess that very few are in the mindset to accept hand signals during the skydive. An AFFI, on an AFF dive, might be a little more likely to 'get it' right away because the hand signals are part of the jump and used (on the student) every jump. On a tandem, however, it's easy to forget about them, and this is why the hand signal, combined with eye contact and facial expression gets the message across. Just to be fair, I don't think I would 'get' a hand signal thrown in my direction right away either. It's too far outside the normal course of things, and I'm used to hand signals being thrown as poses for the camera, or rude gestures in my general direction. With reagrds to the video in the thread, hand signal or no, when your d-bag hits in the back of the head (at 1:12 in the vid) during drougefall, that's a pretty good sign something isn't right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #9 February 21, 2010 >>What's this mal called?Tandem . . . ! NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #10 February 21, 2010 sure thing JM... i have always felt that the TM and the video ARE a team.....and accept my responsibility, as "an extra pair of eyes"...in order to monitor for such situations... I was pulling and throwing.... REAL hard... with my right hand, ( though not touching MY pc handle) and really rocking my left arm... with the index finger pointing,, multiple times...so that the TM did get it...the solo jumper had dropped his grip about the time the D bag came into view... and was looking at ME...( i had given some thought to the fact, that his dock might have dislodged an otherwise ALMOST popped cable.... but the video , regarding that theory was inconclusive ) The solo, ( may He R I P )( years later, due to illness) mentioned that he "knew what was goin' on", but he did nothing, so i'm not convinced he ever noticed...davelepka....valid point about eye to eye contact... all our our TM's stay well tuned in to the outside video people... accepting the camera persons cues to "lift the students' heads" or rotating for us when we put the sun at OUR backs... and the TMs usually check the spot, at some point during the dive, while the camera is immersed in getting the shot.. A " flipping of the bird" is our standard hand signal from the TM, that the spot is looong...so teamwork... welllll.. WORKS !!! this example is further evidence IMHO, of the value of outside camera,,, as compared to handcam,,,, and of 13,500 foot exits,, as compared to 10,500 feet... nickdg.... we're on the same page brother,,,as regards "improvements" in the sport, both of us having come up, through static line training... But it's tough to fight city hall and changes happen....so we do well to stay on our toes, to keep things standard,, i.e. NO "head down" tandems, no "multiple backloop" exits... sensible camera to tandem gripping and spinning, and reasonable and only qualified "extras", invited on such jumps... jt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4chewnate 0 #11 February 21, 2010 OK I'm pretty new to all this so tell me if I'm wrong. But aren't one of you more experienced guys going to point out that the TI is having one hell of a time controlling the student? Not only that but the guy who is high and to the left doesn't look like he has much experience trying to dock on a tandem. It looks to me like he exits by exposing his back to the prop and not diving out in a good stable presentation. He also looks way to close to the tandem as he is trying to get down to them. It seems like there is a lot of dangerous stuff going on during this jump, including the lack of awareness on the part of the TI. If I'm wrong........I'm ready to take my beating now Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #12 February 21, 2010 That exit I've seen before, from other accompanying jumpers who are too anxious... Yes he looks to be a bit too close, he should be coming in flatter from the side preferably in view of the TM, not come in from this angle and not this steep. I'm not sure I'd call his flying dangerous per se, I would talk to him about it but I've seen accompanying flyers do much worse and I strongly prefer not to have any anymore! About controlling the student, looks to me like a stiff/not relaxed student, that's when you get the potato chipping, that can happen nothing to worry about IMO. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #13 February 22, 2010 Strange (or is it?) that the video is edited to cut out right in the middle of the mal sequence. Also interesting that comments submitted don't get posted. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
