diablopilot 2 #1 February 18, 2010 I'm en route...anyone have any issues they want reported on?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #2 February 18, 2010 Cya tomorrow. Looking forward to the (probably very brief) discussion on the Coach Rating/AFF/TI rating changes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #3 February 18, 2010 Yea, the new "conditional AFF ratings".you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #4 February 18, 2010 See you there, mate.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #5 February 18, 2010 QuoteI'm en route...anyone have any issues they want reported on? Yes please, the reason a D license is required for awards. ThanksBut what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #6 February 18, 2010 Maybe a more clear version of what a coach can sign off on a 2 page A license card. Its been going back and forth, for individual skill verification (like a dive and dock, or canopy maneuvers) why cant a coach sign off on them? Its not like the AFF-I was there to watch the dive and dock most the time, so why should they sign their name on the coachs' word, instead of the coach signing his own info? It defeats the purpose for an instructor to sign off on something they didnt see, when the coach who did, cant... Its an instructional rating, but not an instructor that can sign off on anything, either it IS or it ISNT an instructional rating. Sorry... that one has just confused me since I was on AFF myself."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #7 February 18, 2010 Quote Sorry... that one has just confused me since I was on AFF myself. And the "clarifying email" that was sent to instructional rating holders (including coaches) made it even more confusing! Looks like it's on the S&T committee agenda. JP, here's an interesting one on the Group Membership committee agenda ... can you ask them how they DO monitor and enforce compliance for US-based group members? Quote 1. Group Membership Affiliation for Foreign (Non-U. S.) Group Members Propose and adopt restructured requirements for foreign DZ affiliation with USPA. Reasons include: a. USPA lacks the ability to monitor and enforce compliance with the provisions of the Group Member Pledge at most non-U.S. drop zones. b. The Group Member pledge requires foreign DZ compliance with FAA regulations which are not binding on foreign drop zones, and requires foreign DZs to complete an Aircraft Status Form for Group Membership, which is based on FAA regulations. "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #8 February 18, 2010 QuoteMaybe a more clear version of what a coach can sign off on a 2 page A license card. Its been going back and forth, for individual skill verification (like a dive and dock, or canopy maneuvers) why cant a coach sign off on them? Its not like the AFF-I was there to watch the dive and dock most the time, so why should they sign their name on the coachs' word, instead of the coach signing his own info? It defeats the purpose for an instructor to sign off on something they didnt see, when the coach who did, cant... Its an instructional rating, but not an instructor that can sign off on anything, either it IS or it ISNT an instructional rating. Sorry... that one has just confused me since I was on AFF myself. It is an instructional rating, it is not the rating of an instructor. A Coach should be considered an apprentice to an instructor. On the two page care I can't remember much if anything that can be signed off by a coach, the 4 page card is a better resource for both instructor and student as it is more comprehensive. A coach really must work under the supervision of an instructor(s) to maintain the quality and standards of information and training. Usually if it's not already on an agenda it's not eligible for discussion but I'll see what the powers that be say.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #9 February 18, 2010 We talked about the non- US DZ's last time, I imagine that modifications will be made, but we'll see. As for US compliance, and enforcements of GM and membership, well I'll be watching the RD committee meeting to see what happens there.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #10 February 18, 2010 Quotea. USPA lacks the ability to monitor and enforce compliance with the provisions of the Group Member Pledge at most non-U.S. drop zones. Quotecan you ask them how they DO monitor and enforce compliance for US-based group members? Here is how it works: 1. Do nothing other then collect a DZ's money to join GM program. 2. If someone complains, do nothing, but talk the party line on phone or emails. 3. Once more then one person complains, still do nothing 4. Once enough people and maybe even the FAA take notice and complain, then Glen Bangs will seek out one of his golden butt buddies to go to "look in to it" with the following instructions: 1. Get big push broom 2. Lift closest rug 3. Sweep under rug 4. lay back down rug 5. Walk away as if nothing happened 6. If FAA asks more questions, claim self policing and hope they go away happy. 7. Report to BOD "it been handled"you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #11 February 18, 2010 QuoteQuoteMaybe a more clear version of what a coach can sign off on a 2 page A license card. Its been going back and forth, for individual skill verification (like a dive and dock, or canopy maneuvers) why cant a coach sign off on them? Its not like the AFF-I was there to watch the dive and dock most the time, so why should they sign their name on the coachs' word, instead of the coach signing his own info? It defeats the purpose for an instructor to sign off on something they didnt see, when the coach who did, cant... Its an instructional rating, but not an instructor that can sign off on anything, either it IS or it ISNT an instructional rating. Sorry... that one has just confused me since I was on AFF myself. It is an instructional rating, it is not the rating of an instructor. A Coach should be considered an apprentice to an instructor. On the two page care I can't remember much if anything that can be signed off by a coach, the 4 page card is a better resource for both instructor and student as it is more comprehensive. A coach really must work under the supervision of an instructor(s) to maintain the quality and standards of information and training. Usually if it's not already on an agenda it's not eligible for discussion but I'll see what the powers that be say. I had the 4 page card and there was still confusion about what a coach could sign off on. I was told only in-air skills on category F-H. It held up my licesne as some of my things were signed off incorrectly and I had to go back and have them signed off by somebody w/ the proper rating. Not that big a deal for me but some clarification would be helpful."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #12 February 18, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteMaybe a more clear version of what a coach can sign off on a 2 page A license card. Its been going back and forth, for individual skill verification (like a dive and dock, or canopy maneuvers) why cant a coach sign off on them? Its not like the AFF-I was there to watch the dive and dock most the time, so why should they sign their name on the coachs' word, instead of the coach signing his own info? It defeats the purpose for an instructor to sign off on something they didnt see, when the coach who did, cant... Its an instructional rating, but not an instructor that can sign off on anything, either it IS or it ISNT an instructional rating. Sorry... that one has just confused me since I was on AFF myself. It is an instructional rating, it is not the rating of an instructor. A Coach should be considered an apprentice to an instructor. On the two page care I can't remember much if anything that can be signed off by a coach, the 4 page card is a better resource for both instructor and student as it is more comprehensive. A coach really must work under the supervision of an instructor(s) to maintain the quality and standards of information and training. Usually if it's not already on an agenda it's not eligible for discussion but I'll see what the powers that be say. I had the 4 page card and there was still confusion about what a coach could sign off on. I was told only in-air skills on category F-H. It held up my licesne as some of my things were signed off incorrectly and I had to go back and have them signed off by somebody w/ the proper rating. Not that big a deal for me but some clarification would be helpful. There is 4 places a coach can sign off on a 4 page card (where it says C/I instead of just I)"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hchunter614 0 #13 February 18, 2010 If as a coach I can teach and observe a skill (freefall, emergency review, equipment) then why can't I sign off on that skill? Yes I am working under the supervision of an AFFI but that's why an AFFI has to sign the back of the card. Requiring a coach to track down an AFFI to sign off after a debrief usually results in the student having to wait around longer since most AFFIs are busy with their own students. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #14 February 18, 2010 QuoteIf as a coach I can teach and observe a skill (freefall, emergency review, equipment) then why can't I sign off on that skill? Yes I am working under the supervision of an AFFI but that's why an AFFI has to sign the back of the card. Requiring a coach to track down an AFFI to sign off after a debrief usually results in the student having to wait around longer since most AFFIs are busy with their own students. Thats what I'm sayin!"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #15 February 18, 2010 QuoteIf as a coach I can teach and observe a skill (freefall, emergency review, equipment) then why can't I sign off on that skill? Yes I am working under the supervision of an AFFI but that's why an AFFI has to sign the back of the card. Requiring a coach to track down an AFFI to sign off after a debrief usually results in the student having to wait around longer since most AFFIs are busy with their own students. The instructor's signature is essentially his/her certification that your coaching was, at least to some degree, actually under his/her supervision. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Para5-0 0 #16 February 19, 2010 Yes, hand them this: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/instructorchanges/ Specifically the 168 people working out in the field support. To inlcude DZO's, S&TA's, and instructors with thousands of jumps. Other than that have fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #17 February 19, 2010 Quote I had the 4 page card and there was still confusion about what a coach could sign off on. I was told only in-air skills on category F-H. It held up my licesne as some of my things were signed off incorrectly and I had to go back and have them signed off by somebody w/ the proper rating. Not that big a deal for me but some clarification would be helpful. There really shouldn't be any confusion. On the card where ever it has an "I" that requires an instructor. "C" Coach, "P" Pilot, "R" Rigger.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #18 February 19, 2010 Thank you Rich, sorry I hadn't e-mailed you back yet.....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #19 February 19, 2010 QuoteQuoteIf as a coach I can teach and observe a skill (freefall, emergency review, equipment) then why can't I sign off on that skill? Yes I am working under the supervision of an AFFI but that's why an AFFI has to sign the back of the card. Requiring a coach to track down an AFFI to sign off after a debrief usually results in the student having to wait around longer since most AFFIs are busy with their own students. The instructor's signature is essentially his/her certification that your coaching was, at least to some degree, actually under his/her supervision. I want a coach to sign off on each thing they taught - so they are accountable. When I sign the bottom line final signoff for the "A", I will review knowledge and when the quiz and signoff jump are done I will see if the student is ready... If I discover a coach did a poor job of training I can find out who did it by reading the card.... I can also see if one coach did all the work or if the student got multiple perspectives from various coaches... I don't want another "I", who did not actually do the dirty work, sign off for a coach... No accountability and no traceability if another "I" signed but did not do the work. I know so many coaches who work their butt off in a good way for students, and god forbid, some of them have just over 100 jumps and do a good job... Let them take the credit for their work - OR - document their inadequacies in teaching. Another way to look at it... The patient in the hospital is under the supervision of a doctor. The nurses also are under the supervision of the doctor's orders. The doctor trusts a nurse to administer care and sign the patent's chart. When that care is substandard, the chart shows who did the substandard work, and it is all done "under the supervision" of the doctor, even if the doctor is not in the room... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #20 February 19, 2010 Great way of explaining what I was trying to say."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #21 February 19, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteIf as a coach I can teach and observe a skill (freefall, emergency review, equipment) then why can't I sign off on that skill? Yes I am working under the supervision of an AFFI but that's why an AFFI has to sign the back of the card. Requiring a coach to track down an AFFI to sign off after a debrief usually results in the student having to wait around longer since most AFFIs are busy with their own students. The instructor's signature is essentially his/her certification that your coaching was, at least to some degree, actually under his/her supervision. I want a coach to sign off on each thing they taught - so they are accountable. When I sign the bottom line final signoff for the "A", I will review knowledge and when the quiz and signoff jump are done I will see if the student is ready... If I discover a coach did a poor job of training I can find out who did it by reading the card.... I can also see if one coach did all the work or if the student got multiple perspectives from various coaches... I don't want another "I", who did not actually do the dirty work, sign off for a coach... No accountability and no traceability if another "I" signed but did not do the work. I know so many coaches who work their butt off in a good way for students, and god forbid, some of them have just over 100 jumps and do a good job... Let them take the credit for their work - OR - document their inadequacies in teaching. Another way to look at it... The patient in the hospital is under the supervision of a doctor. The nurses also are under the supervision of the doctor's orders. The doctor trusts a nurse to administer care and sign the patent's chart. When that care is substandard, the chart shows who did the substandard work, and it is all done "under the supervision" of the doctor, even if the doctor is not in the room... To get the changes you are asking you'd need to change these sections of the BSRs or maybe have a sig block for both the C and I. Quote E. Student skydivers Note: All references to USPA instructional rating holders apply to higher rating holders in that training discipline. 1. General [E] a. All student training programs must be conducted under the direction and oversight of an appropriately rated USPA Instructor until the student is issued a USPA A license. b. A person conducting, training, or supervising student jumps musthold a USPA instructional rating according to the requirements that follow. 2. First-jump course [E] a. All first-jump non-method-specific training mustbe conducted by a USPA Instructor or a USPA Coach under the supervision of a USPA Instructor. b. All method-specific training must be conducted by a USPA Instructor rated in the method for which the student isbeing trained. typos courtesy of USPA .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #22 February 19, 2010 No changes required to the BSRs... This is not about the FJC, so lets just read section 1 (general): Quote1. General [E] a. All student training programs must be conducted under the direction and oversight of an appropriately rated USPA Instructor until the student is issued a USPA A license. That does NOT conflict with a coach working directly with a student, with a coach signing a card, then presenting the completed card and the student to an instructor for the instructor to do the final checkoff dive and verbal quiz.... If the coach was a rouge coach, not working with the instructor, not respected by the instructor, unknown by the instructor, the instructor could refuse to sign the final signature on the card authorizing the A until each section is re-reviewed... If the coach is someone the instructor has learned to respect, they might take the coach's signature on face value and only offer a bit of additional advice and do less quizzing of the student for their final checkoff dive... As long as the bottom and final signature is done by an instructor, and the checkoff dive and verbal quiz is done by an instructor, the rest can be done and signed off by a coach and still follow the spirit of the rules as written. "Direction and Oversight" does not mean "there every moment", nor does it mean, "has to review every detail." Oversight can be, "when I was packing I paid attention to what the coach was telling this student, and he was doing a good job, so I have learned to trust this coach's signature after seeing them teach a few students" - or the opposite - "I don't know this person, lets re-quiz this topic before I sign off for the A and do any re-training necessary." In the real world - most DZs are small tight knit communities and instructors know immediately who are the good coaches and who are not. It's the instructor's job to not sign the A licence until they verified the coaches did their job properly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hchunter614 0 #23 February 19, 2010 That BSR only addresses the First Jump Course, at least the portion that you quoted. That is not what any of us are talking about. We're talking about a coach being able to teach and observe skills in Cats E through H but not being able to sign off on those. tdog hit the nail on the head above. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #24 February 19, 2010 Quote Quote1. General [E] a. All student training programs must be conducted under the direction and oversight of an appropriately rated USPA Instructor until the student is issued a USPA A license. As long as the bottom and final signature is done by an instructor, and the checkoff dive and verbal quiz is done by an instructor, the rest can be done and signed off by a coach and still follow the spirit of the rules as written. You are missing the issue. Say a student is partway through training and has an accident. A section of the card, requiring an I, is signed off by a Coach. Ooops--- that's a BSR violation. (under today's rules) The DZ did not provide the standard of care that the USPA suggests. A lawyer will yank the coach, DZ and USPA (if USPA accepted a coach's sig where an I was required) into court in a heartbeat. This is why I suggested that having a sig block for both C & I might alleviate the logistical problem. You'd have documentation that each part of a Coach's training was supervised and still abide by the current BSRs. I do find it strange or funny that some people are clamoring for augmented entry skill levels and renewal requirements and then also clamor for 'letting a coach sign off' stuff that requires an Instructor. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #25 February 19, 2010 QuoteJP, here's an interesting one on the Group Membership committee agenda ... can you ask them how they DO monitor and enforce compliance for US-based group members? The short answer is they don't. I personally know of one Member DZ that was had some serious violations of the FAR’s and therefore the BSR’’s. USPA was notified 3 or 4 times over a period of 5 years. The action they chose was to ignore it. It took a plane crash to close down. The Group Member Program serves the needs of privately owned business, DZO, not the individual jumper. The BOD is controlled by the very people the Program is supposed to police. But for the paltry sum of $55.00 its one hell of a deal………Last year! SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
