ladyskydiver 0 #1 May 8, 2005 Based on this incident, I've got some questions. 100 jumps, B license and flying a flag? From where I stand, that seems to be absolutely ridiculous and should have never happened. I don't have time to dig into the SIM right now and my personal feelings are that there is no way in hell that jumper should have been jumping a flag, but I'd like to ask those with more experience and instructors...should a jumper with that low of experience have been jumping a flag?Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kai2k1 0 #2 May 8, 2005 I wouldnt have done it, but some say im too conservative for my jump numbers. There's no truer sense of flying than sky diving," Scott Cowan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
efex 0 #3 May 8, 2005 In short probably not. Here is an extract from the BPA OPS manual, which I know is not directly the same as USPA but non the less worthy the comparison: Quote Equipment such as; GPS, flags, smoke brackets etc, may be actively used by FAI ‘C’ Certificate (Red) parachutists with permission of the CCI/Team Leader. i.e A minimum of 200 jumps, plus two other grades, IC1 etc. I also know that the CCI at my local dropzone will probably not allow anyone too jump even a modest sized flag with anything less than 500 jumps. Warwick University Skydiving Club Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #4 May 8, 2005 GPS??? For what reason? How can a GPS endanger a skydiver? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
efex 0 #5 May 8, 2005 hehe, i saw that too. God knows why Warwick University Skydiving Club Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #6 May 8, 2005 Im guessing GPS would distract you if you were looking at it during a skydive? yeah it sounds kinda stupid. MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #7 May 8, 2005 So they might forget to mention Nintendo, mp3 player and a portable DVD player too. :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #8 May 8, 2005 Experienced jumpers can get in trouble doing this type of thing too. I guess it was 1996 and I was aboard the Perris Otter making a fun jump. Closer to the door I saw Larry Langrand preparing to test jump a banner/flag for an upcoming demo. He looked at me and I smiled, but he didn't smile back at me. He looked a bit apprehensive but I would have forgotten it had the jump went well. Larry was carrying a pouch containing the banner/flag and I don’t recall the exact sequence but the pouch opened prematurely while he was in freefall and somehow fouled his main bridle and then his entire reserve. Larry went in off the DZ and there was a horrible story in the newspaper the next day quoting wuffo witnesses saying they heard Larry screaming as he hit. What I'm pretty sure they heard was the sound of the tangled mess he was wrapped in a dragging behind him and I know Larry would have fighting to get something to work right to the end . . . One thing I heard from a non-jumper at the DZ that puts things in perspective was this: He was watching some people dirt dive a formation and he said, "My god, it's not enough they jump from the plane, they gotta do tricks too?" Leave flag, smoke, whatever, jumping to the professional skydivers. At least if the worst happens there's still a check to be cashed . . . NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #9 May 8, 2005 ok....had time to look at the SIM. The jumper SHOULD NOT have been permitted to do the jump. http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2005SIM/section7.htmLife is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Punky_Monkey 0 #10 May 8, 2005 the jump was on the DZ******* Punky Monkey You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them how to fly in formation Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #11 May 8, 2005 Are you telling me that even though it was on the DZ, it wasn't a demo jump? Regardless of that...whoever thought that someone with 100 jumps should be jumping a flag....**shaking head** good thing your friend will live.Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Punky_Monkey 0 #12 May 8, 2005 No it wasn't a demo jump and she has OVER a 100 jumps. I don't know the exact number but she is always jumping every chance she can get.******* Punky Monkey You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them how to fly in formation Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #13 May 8, 2005 Ok...so the demo portion doesn't apply. I'm still digging through the SIM and IRM to find out if there are USPA guidelines to flying with a flag, but... However over 100 jumps...hon...I'm going to say this as nicely as possible and realize that this is not directed at you... Whoever thought that at her low experience that she would be OK jumping a flag is an #$*&)$#, and I would tell them that to their face. Hell...I've got almost 300 jumps and there's no way that I should be jumping a flag just yet. Currency is awesome, BUT her experience level - she's just a baby in this sport and unfortunately, she learned a hard lesson that at least she'll live through...this sport is unforgiving of mistakes. Sometimes you're lucky and escape with only a minor heartattack, sometimes you're injured and then other times you pay with your life. Again, I'm glad that your friend will live.Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #14 May 8, 2005 Even if she had 500 jumps, her reaction to cutaway without considering what to do with the flag already deployed may have been the same. The preparation for a flag jump will never happen until it is needed, if even then... I did flag demos at barely over 100 jumps.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #15 May 8, 2005 True, the reaction may have been the same. However, there's, also, a good chance that at 500 jumps she would have had a little bit more forethought about "What ifs?" and reacted better. QuoteI did flag demos at barely over 100 jumps. And I'm glad you're still here to tell us that. However, I totally disagree that such a young jumper should be doing those kinds of jumps. There are enough things that can go wrong with just you in the air much less adding things like a flag, etc. Young jumpers need time and experience to get used to being in the air and to learn their canopy. I'm starting to sound like a safety nazi, but I'm so sick and tired of seeing incident reports that could have been prevented. And, hell...I'm still considered a tourist in the sport as I haven't hit 10 years.Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #16 May 8, 2005 I asked this question elsewhere, but... The sequence is - open your canopy and determine that you have a good steerable main above, then drop the flag out of the bag. If that was done correctly, then why was the flag even out when the cutaway occurred ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #17 May 8, 2005 QuoteThe sequence is - open your canopy and determine that you have a good steerable main above, then drop the flag out of the bag. If that was done correctly, then why was the flag even out when the cutaway occurred ? As I understand, the main canopy was deployed, and the jumper determined she had a properly functioning canopy over her head. She did not release the brakes. The flag was deployed, and things were good with it. The jumper reached up to unstow her toggles, and found they would not unstow. Jumper determined this to be a malfunction, and initiated normal main cutaway and reserve deployment procedures, without cutting away the flag. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #18 May 9, 2005 I asked this question elsewhere, but... The sequence is - open your canopy and determine that you have a good steerable main above, then drop the flag out of the bag. If that was done correctly, then why was the flag even out when the cutaway occurred ? *** "The sequence is - open your canopy and determine that you have a good steerable main above, then drop the flag out of the bag." ~ That's not necessarily the sequence... There are a multitude of variable factors involved regarding the order that things are done during a demonstration jump...and make no mistake, this was a demonstration jump...dropzone or not. To briefly outline: Depending on the canopy speed and rate of decent, it's often advisable to leave the brakes on prior to deploying the flag. To much forward speed can affect the way the flag / banner deploys itself. It may tangle or knot up so to speak. Also if there is other traffic close to you as is often the case during a demo jump, you want to keep the canopy flying slow while your attention is diverted from flying the parachute to deploying the flag. There are many more factors to consider during a flag jump...to many to go into here. But suffice it to say, this person was in my opinion not ready to attempt a demo jump like that. And in addition wasn't trained either right or well enough, and serious injury is the result. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #19 May 9, 2005 Leave flag, smoke, whatever, jumping to the professional skydivers. At least if the worst happens there's still a check to be cashed . . . *** GRRRRRRR! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #20 May 9, 2005 Does a cutaway flag fall quickly or slowly? In other words, if one found oneself in the situation of having to cutaway a main post-flag-deployment, after cutting away the flag how would one determine when it was safe to cut away one's main? (using one to emphasise that I've no intention of jumping a flag; I'm just curious). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #21 May 9, 2005 QuoteDoes a cutaway flag fall quickly or slowly? In other words, if one found oneself in the situation of having to cutaway a main post-flag-deployment, after cutting away the flag how would one determine when it was safe to cut away one's main? (using one to emphasise that I've no intention of jumping a flag; I'm just curious). Quote Most flags are weighted so that they will fly reasonably straight. When cut-away...they will fall FAST! Fast enough to hurt or kill someone on the ground. Another reason why one should NEVER deploy anything over a crowd. If you cut-away the flag, by the time you get your hands on you rig handles it will be clear...and has enough of a head start it 'shouldn't' be a factor in reserve deployment. (Never say Never) You should always have at least two ways of cutting away a flag or banner...a quick release of some sort, and at least one hook knife. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeiber 0 #22 May 9, 2005 QuoteDoes a cutaway flag fall quickly or slowly? Well, the flag itself would fall pretty slow I suppose.... but the 10 pound weight at the bottom might fall pretty fast! Before I get nitpicky responses, yes, I realize that it may be more or less than 10 pounds, depending on the size of the flag.... JeffShhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #23 May 9, 2005 Well, the flag itself would fall pretty slow I suppose.... but the 10 pound weight at the bottom might fall pretty fast! *** But...! Brings up another good point... Ya REALLY wanna make sure that ten pound weight STAYS attached! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeiber 0 #24 May 9, 2005 QuoteYa REALLY wanna make sure that ten pound weight STAYS attached! Very true.... I was just making kind of a light hearted comment.Since you brought it up, I think it's worth mentioning that objects (ahem, beer bottles) dropped from altitude can impact with deadly force.... just something to keep in mind on that next sunset cross country jump... Jeff ps- I know nobody ever jumps with beer, but I was just using that as a hypothetical example! Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #25 May 9, 2005 QuoteAs I understand, the main canopy was deployed, and the jumper determined she had a properly functioning canopy over her head. She did not release the brakes. If she did not release the brakes, she did not determine that there was a properly functioning canopy over her head as I doubt very highly that she checked steerability with her risers. The way to check if there is a properly functioning canopy over your head is: Size Shape Steerability Size and shape may have been determined but steerability obviously wasn't.Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
