Stacks and approaches for swoping (was double fatality, NJ - 04 July 2005)

[YonatanRan 0]

They were both Swooping and both landing into the wind....
Bad luck...thats what it was all about....
A second diffrence and everything would have bin diffrent....
For those who asked....Sara was doing a 180 turn, and had completed the tiurn and was on final... under a canopy that was flying strait and had completed the turn...
Ron was doing a 270 turn, landing into the wind...
The swoops coincided...when ron was completing his turn his body struck her canopy and that was it....

No one fault...they both missed each other and had a hole lot of bad luck on timing....

They were not going for gated or anything like that...just swooping...

We were all training together....for nationals, Freeflying...Me and Ron were doing stuff while Sara coverd for my fuck ups and made us look good...

I think that the thing we should take from this is:

Know who is in the sky with you....if there are other swoopers in the air, find them before you swoop, know where everyone is....and if you can't find them all, don't swoop!


CK Essential 4EVER...


Yonatan

[Ron 7]

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Bad luck...thats what it was all about

Nonsense

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No one fault...they both missed each other and had a hole lot of bad luck on timing

There were two people at fault.

Know who is swooping and where they are swooping.

There is a process I WISH swoopers would use....Its from a Demo playbook and its called a STACK.

Before bording each swooper decides WHO will land WHEN and in WHAT direction.

IDENTIFY where the others are in the stack before you swoop.

This is a clear case of target fixation leading to a collision and two deaths.

Also being that swooping is such a large sport in itself, maybe swoopers should get out low when they are swooping. Adding a swoop to a regular skydive is fine, but accidents like this will be the price we pay.

I knew Ron, I liked him. But to claim that there was no fault is just wrong.

It takes TWO people to collide, ONE to avoid.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ianmdrennan 2]

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No one fault

No ONE fault, not no ONE'S fault - big difference.

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There is a process I WISH swoopers would use....Its from a Demo playbook and its called a STACK.

In competition we do, however in a 'regular' skydive we have to deal with toggle whipping yahoo's, people who insist on trying to beat us down under bigger canopies, inconsiderate or erratic patterns, or simply just people who were out first and are below us (with every right to be there).

All can be, and are, dealt with but it's not as simple as simply calling a 'stack'. I know you know this Ron as you have (and do) jump smaller canopies.

I don't think, for one second, that Yonaton doesn't believe this was a preventable incident.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Ron 7]

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In competition we do, however in a 'regular' skydive we have to deal with toggle whipping yahoo's, people who insist on trying to beat us down under bigger canopies, inconsiderate or erratic patterns, or simply just people who were out first and are below us (with every right to be there).

Then know when to hook and when not to hook.

If the swoop is the focus, then get your own pass. Zhills is pretty good about giving a seperate pass at 12000 if you ask. My 4way team gets out at 10.5 for several reasons..One of them is we don't like the gaggle on landing.

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I don't think, for one second, that Yonaton doesn't believe this was a preventable incident.

My issue was him saying it was "bad luck"....It was not. It was two people target fixated flying perfectly good canopies into each other.

When you say something was "bad luck" you are putting the reason on some force that can't be measured.

If I get a speeding ticket, it is not bad luck...It was because I was speeding.

I know that they were loved...And I know how people always try to defend the actions of the people they care about.

But this was not just "bad luck".

And accidents like this are becoming more and more common. With wingloads from .8 to 2.8 on the same plane they will become even MORE common in the future.

Diligence is the key.

So, lets not loose the lesson.

What can we do to prevent this from happening THIS weekend?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Ian I agree with some of the things you say, but I'm also in agreement with Ron. We ... the swoopers ... must be prepared to abort our swoop at any time and we really need to communicate with the other people on the load as well. One would like to think that hop n' pops are the way to go, but shit I've had low-timers hanging out above our entry gates on a hop n' pop even when they told me before we left the ground that they would not be near our swoop course (can you say poor canopy control). One would think that the logical answer would be for me to exit before these low-timers, but we seem to have a lot of people who like to pull low on their hop n' pops so for those people I like to let them go before me.

Anyway I digress ...

My two biggest fears at the DZ where I do most of my jumps is from the people who say that they will avoid our swoop course yet due to poor canopy control they still fly by it. Our course runs west to east but people can often been seen flying past the exit gates on the eastern side (shit they don't seem to realize that we can often out swoop the entire swoop course). My other fear is from the up and coming swooper. You know the guy/gal who wants to swoop, has okay skills, but is not ready to be running gates. These guys and gals need to do the very same thing that the rest of us swoopers do and that is to evaluate who's on the load, who's doing what sort of jump (RW, Freefly and AFF) and where will they and everyone else fit into the pattern. Sometimes it makes sense to try and be first down, sometimes it makes sense to be in the middle and sometimes it makes sense to try and be last. Everyone who swoops must be prepared to abort their swoop, but they also must be realistic of their skills, recognize if their canopy is ground hungry or not and sequence themselves into the pattern. Personally I'm getting tired of seeing people pull low only because they want to be first down and set the swooping pattern. That's just dangerous. I can't do that with my Velo because my Velo wants to kill me. So I given myself altitude to work with and sequence myself into the pattern.

Let's be smart out there folks. Let's talk to each other before we leave the ground, stick to the plan and keep our eyes open. And if you're not a swooper, please avoid the high swooping traffic areas at all cost. Not only is my ass on the line, so is yours.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Then know when to hook and when not to hook.

Please note that I said, right below what you quoted, that all can be and are dealt with. No where did I hint at, or say, that we can hook whenever we feel like it.

You said it's as simple as calling a stack. I said it's not.

Yes, I prefer to have my own pass, no not all of us are lucky enough to jump at dz's that will do that.

Realistically there are going to be people doing all types of flying in the sky at the same time.

Ultimately, being aware as to where everyone is and making smart decisions is one of the best things we (every kind of skydiver) can do.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Ron 7]

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Please note that I said, right below what you quoted, that all can be and are dealt with. No where did I hint at, or say, that we can hook whenever we feel like it.

Ian this is not directed at you. Please don't take it personally.

You and I BOTH know that there are people who think they have the right to do as they please. I have seen arguments where a swooper yelled at a STUDENT for "ruining his skydive" since he didn't get to swoop.

People don't have the right to swoop when it is a danger to someone else, but you would be hard pressed to tell some that.

I had a swooper tell me that if I wanted *To land INTO the wind* on the pond then I needed a seperate pass from them since they wanted to go down wind. They had 3 people who wanted to exit with everyone at 13.5 then land downwind....And I had to get a lower pass? I was landing INTO the wind.

There are several things that need to be done.

1. Seperate landing areas for ponds and such....Places like Zhills do not have that option.

2. Seperate passes for those wishing to swoop. As you said, some DZ's don't offer that option, plus what if I want to swoop and you don't and we are on the same jump?

3. A stack. Like it or not this is VERY easy to have a plane load do if people know how to do it. This prevents the low pullers from humming it down, it prevents the guys with high WL's from pulling high and ridding breaks, It fixes everything...And it can be done at any DZ.

Go to Raeford...Very few landing problems there due to the fact most see stacks all day long and know how to work into a stack.

You will still have students screwing thinsg up....But they don't know better.

We had a guy that used to leave after us and pull low and try to beat us down by spirialing....He has a 135, and I have the biggest canopy on my team with a 107. He was getting in the patteren with 200 pound guys on Velo 79's.....I asked him what sense does that make. And told him about a stack. Now he lands right after us, not with us....Simple.

All you need is to bother to teach it to people.

People need to learn to stack. Talking about it and DOING it is a key.

This problem is not going to go away, it is going to get worse.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[tso-d_chris 0]

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it prevents the guys with high WL's from pulling high and riding brakes

I'm not sure why this is a problem. I've seen more than one highly experienced swoopers (PD test jumpers making fun jumps), on many occasions, hang out up high until everyone has spiralled down before landing. It serves the same purpose of ensuring that they land at a different time or place than everyone else.

The nice thing about cross-braced canopies is they tend have a larger performance envelope than their non-cross braced counterparts. An experienced pilot can make it fly pretty slow, with a flat glide.

What am I missing?

For Great Deals on Gear

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Ian this is not directed at you. Please don't take it personally.

No worries, not taking it that way. I think my general frustration with the state of canopy piloting/education is showing through a bit

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All you need is to bother to teach it to people.

People need to learn to stack. Talking about it and DOING it is a key.

Agreed, and we try very hard to implement this at Skydive Atlanta. Often though, our biggest offenders come from 'experienced jumpers/instructors' who think they know everything cause they've been doing it for X years (forget the fact that they've done NOTHING to keep their knowledge current). Our best reponses come from students who genuinely want to listen and feel there is more to learn.

Also, I had a really interesting conversation this weekend (I was visiting Skyknights) with a guy who crushed his vertabrae on a landing on Saturday. Post accident, we spoke in depth about landing techniques, patterns, levels, etc. He was extremely receptive but had NEVER EVER considered using braked flight in his pattern. I explained to him that by using a NON Full Glide pattern, the pilot has the ability to speed up or slow down and find their place in the pattern with minimal spiralling. The fact that this never occured to him, or that someone never taught this to him concerns me deeply, but one only has to look around at people spiralling randomly, staying on level with other jumpers (cause they're all in full flight at similar loadings, etc), etc to realize it's a common problem.

The problems with canopy flight, IMO, aren't just limited to one set of things. The attitude across the board needs addressing. Hell, we had Ian Bobo out for a weekend of coaching (beginner to advanced) and NOT ONE instructor sat in on the lessons. That's just downright disgusting.

There are so many problems on so many levels with the current mindset of jumpers (both upcoming and experienced). I can't tell you how it chills my bones to hear an instructor saying 'I'm landing into the wind no matter what you all do' when the plane load has designated a landing direction in light and variable winds (not referencing your example btw). What kind of message does that send to our students? Also when people downsize I don't think they realize that the smaller they go, the more people they need to fly for (all basically finding and adapting your place in the pattern).

Ugg...there is so much that needs addressing and quite honestly I don't know where to start

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[ianmdrennan 2]

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I'm not sure why this is a problem. I've seen more than one highly experienced swoopers (PD test jumpers making fun jumps), on many occasions, hang out up high until everyone has spiralled down before landing. It serves the same purpose of ensuring that they land at a different time or place than everyone else.

I agree. Long as they've got their spot in the pattern, what difference does it make on how they achieve their own aerial space.

Personally I prefer to let everyone go before me if there's any way I can safely do it.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Ron 7]

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I'm not sure why this is a problem. I've seen more than one highly experienced swoopers (PD test jumpers making fun jumps), on many occasions, hang out up high until everyone has spiralled down before landing. It serves the same purpose of ensuring that they land at a different time or place than everyone else.

There is no problem if done right.

However I have seen people out in the second group sit around in brakes till the second group is landing and then try to hook...The problem is they are now smack dab in the middle of the 3rd group.

Thats not good.

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The nice thing about cross-braced canopies is they tend have a larger performance envelope than their non-cross braced counterparts. An experienced pilot can make it fly pretty slow, with a flat glide.

What am I missing?

Also you get into the "I can stay up longer than you game".

Then you have people in the first, second and third group landing with the fourth.

That again makes little sense.

With very little exceptions the safest stack has each group landing with seperation and then having seperation between groups.

You can't compare a PD test jumper with Joe Weekender...Although Joe Weekender might think he is as skilled and capable...He is not.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[tso-d_chris 0]

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You can't compare a PD test jumper with Joe Weekender...Although Joe Weekender might think he is as skilled and capable...He is not.

Very good point.

[kallend 1,672]

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1. Seperate landing areas for ponds and such....Places like Zhills do not have that option.

Z Hills has a huge area, must be well over 100 acres. There is no compelling reason I can see that the pond has to be right next to the packing tent other than that the swoopers don't want to walk far.

At SDC they just put in a pond way well away from the "prime" landing spot, just to keep the swoop traffic well separated. They could have chosen to put it by the main hangar, but they didn't.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 7]

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Z Hills has a huge area, must be well over 100 acres

70, but thanks.

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There is no compelling reason I can see that the pond has to be right next to the packing tent other than that the swoopers don't want to walk far.

Sure there is...Our "property line" ends right on the other side of the pond. We were not allowed to go any farther out into our landing area. After much discussion they wanted a pond and the only place that it could go was right there.

Yes, it is a stupid location.

But there is not only one compelling reason, it is THE reason it is there.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 1,672]

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Z Hills has a huge area, must be well over 100 acres

70, but thanks.

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There is no compelling reason I can see that the pond has to be right next to the packing tent other than that the swoopers don't want to walk far.

Sure there is...Our "property line" ends right on the other side of the pond. We were not allowed to go any farther out into our landing area. After much discussion they wanted a pond and the only place that it could go was right there.

Yes, it is a stupid location.

But there is not only one compelling reason, it is THE reason it is there.

Fair enough, but how come you got to put your pea-pit out on someone else's property?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 7]

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Fair enough, but how come you got to put your pea-pit out on someone else's property?

shhhhh don't tell them.

I can only assume that a pea pit is not that big a deal....A big ditch filled with water is.

I mean its really just a bunch of small rocks.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Scrumpot 1]

Yonatan,

First off, thank you again for having the strength to try to bring things that (hopefully) others can learn from; out of this terrible, terrible tragedy. My heart & my sould cries with you over your loss.

I still have some questions, which I sincerely hope you don't mind being ASKED, which could maybe help clarify a few things about this incident in my mind. Again, so as that maybe, just MAYBE I (and others) can potentially also help others, and prevent even just one reoccurance of this tragic event from happening elsewhere:

1. What load of the day was this for the 2 of them?
You mentioned (in the original thread) that each was turning to a tandem I think too, ...right?

2. These 2 seemed extremely close (in a personal sense). Was this something that they were also either "practicing" or doing somehow together ("close proximity swooping") as a part of their PLANNED dives?

3. I am still quite confused as to each's set up and subsequent landing patterns that caused them to converge, and sadly - to actually collide. Is there any further clarifications you could give to us on that?

Why did they just not see each other? Or DID THEY, and it was instead merely a "mistake of inches" in a PLANNED manuever?

Please know that I am not "speculating" ANYTHING here, but again merely ASKING! ...As it is difficult for me to still envision completely how this could have happened, and what to possibly still take from it, in an effort to also otherwise prevent it as a result from also then, just happening again.

Ron was certainly an experienced enough both jumper and canopy pilot that (presumably) he would have cleared his airspace (and "lane") prior to executing his 270 "hook" (that's also what it has been said this was ...right?), especially whilst approaching such a (relatively) "tight" landing area as is there at CK. Or rather, quite simply do you think THAT was his (or either of their) mistake?

No disparragements of either. Please! Just a sincere desire from this (if at all possible) to LEARN.

Thank you again for your strength and resiliance to actually personally give of yourself here to others, and your clear LOVE, caring and concern to post.

Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[freakydiver 0]

No offense but it doesn't sound like no one was at fault or it was just bad luck. I could care less WHO is in the sky with me - only WHERE they are. I think Canuck puts it very well - each situation is different and the only thing you can rely on is your own senses. To try to put a rules based system in place is rather difficult with sometimes 20 canopies in the air of which half may not have a good set of canopy skills. While half may seem like a high number, I honestly believe that even high jump numbers dont coincide with smart driving under canopy.

Bottom line is the head cannot be on a greasy enough swivel. Also - I stay the fuck away from the swoop gates because I don't want to be canned from above while getting in someones way, period. I respect the fact that the swoopers at mile-hi will be entering the gates and adjust accordingly - it really isnt all that difficult. Some communication is necessary I suppose between swoopers and non swoopers, but it only really takes five minutes to figure out a semi-safe landing pattern that keeps one away from the entry to the gates or the pond.

At the same token though - just because I'm in the path of the gates doesn't mean I'm not there for a reason... "People don't have the right to swoop when it is a danger to someone else, but you would be hard pressed to tell some that." Sometimes, because of people flying canopies I may have to adjust and put myself in that general vicinity (although i try with all my might not to) - regardless, it is EVERYONES responsibility for EVERYONE else on the load and that is one problem I see getting worse not better in our beloved sport. Too many people are way to hard on certain situations.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[kelpdiver 2]

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or simply just people who were out first and are below us (with every right to be there).

There's the problem I often face, esp if I'm on a predominantly FF load. I'm going to be one of the first out, yet among the last to land. In a King Air, rarely a problem, but with a two pass Otter, I'm in the thick of things. Elsinore is very exciting, though not from the swoopers. I often hang in brakes, and tend to stay on the far side. I think I know well enough to avoid the swooping lanes, but Canuck points out that this isn't a given.

Do we need to evolve the exit ordering to better set up these stacks? Right now the only typical deviation is to move a belly flier that is pulling 'high,' which may mean over 5k. WL never comes into the discussion at all.

[nate_1979 9]

Me too, I dont have to fly in brakes, I have many times been the first one out the door and the last or close to the last to land, ... and I dont pull "high" or anythng, I just fly a big canopy.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[matereti 0]

First of all Yonatan I don't have any words that will mach your loss, I will miss Sara but I don't think anybody will know how much you will miss her and how deep is your pain.
It is well known that at CK some staff members like to swoop over the team trailer & monkey claw trailer no meter of the wind direction. As meter of fact I saw I close call on the Sunday. When one of the videographers did it. I know that Sara & Ron were not doing such a thing. But I hope management of the CK will start considering to enforce some polices against such a thing after their accident. CK is small landing area and lately very busy. As meter a fact we had a lot parallel runs on the weekend with some 30 something people in the air. I personally don't mind swooping but lately I've seen so many close calls. I personally don't know how to regulate such thing but I know there must some kind of compromise that will make everybody happy.
Goran

[Designer 0]

You are soooooooo right.Accidents happen.Mistakes happen.I jump and open first or last(open 5,000-8,000)(been even known to open 13,500 in Aug.) everytime because of this possible outcome.