Common DZ Practices???

[TLH3 0]

Im a AFF student and was wondering if bumping the students to make room for tandems is a common practice in the industry.

I am finding it very difficult to get jumps in because i schedule some time with the instructor but as soon as a tandem shows up i am put on the back burner. don't get me wrong, I really enjoy the experience and like everyone at the DZ but whats the point in making a schedule if they don't follow it.

Its just a little frustrating to drive 2 hours to be there at a certain time and not jump or have to wait all day until Tandems stop showing up.

My brother had the exact same experience at a different DZ when he was an AFF student as well which is why i'm asking.

[Amazon 7]

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Im a AFF student and was wondering if bumping the students to make room for tandems is a common practice in the industry.

I am finding it very difficult to get jumps in because i schedule some time with the instructor but as soon as a tandem shows up i am put on the back burner. don't get me wrong, I really enjoy the experience and like everyone at the DZ but whats the point in making a schedule if they don't follow it.

Its just a little frustrating to drive 2 hours to be there at a certain time and not jump or have to wait all day until Tandems stop showing up.

My brother had the exact same experience at a different DZ when he was an AFF student as well which is why i'm asking.

If that is the experience you are getting at the DZ, you can pretty much bet that it will not change there. Some DZO's drive for money is far more important than you being able to jump.

Find a new DZ with a larger plane thta can accomodate up jumpers as well as the tandems. That seems to be the only cure for that state of affairs.

[stratostar 5]

Well sometimes that is how it is, yes it sucks, however not all dz's do this, normally it's once your not a student you get bumped. It sounds like your jumping a a smaller dz. But keep in mind even some of the larger dz's, we call "tandem mills" will in fact bump or even shut down operations all together once the tandems are gone.

It would help to know where you are located so that fourm users can steer you towards another non bumping dz....

With that said, there are times due to reasons you may not be aware of that you are bumped or moved to another load, such as gear not packed or the instructor is also the only video person and they need to juggle everyone around to get every one up.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[TLH3 0]

I payed for my AFF as a 25 jump package for my A license. I don't want to sound like im complaining too much as the instructor is awesome and very informative and so are all the staff. When im waiting and killing time everyone is always engaged in my progress and offering suggestions, points and such.

I know that the tandem business is their bread and butter, i just dont understand why I cant jump on the same load as a tandem. i did it my first 4 levels but now it seems taboo. oh well. I hope it will get easier once I start my Solo jumps.

[theonlyski 3]

Is it because your AFF instructors are having to go video/tandem?

Ive had to sit out for a little while during the tandem rushes because one of my instructors was a tandem-i and there werent many aff-is out

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[stratostar 5]

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i just dont understand why I cant jump on the same load as a tandem. i did it my first 4 levels but now it seems taboo.

Is your AFF instructors also tandem masters? Sounds like they are and can't take you then.... FYI AFF is not cheap and is also a bread and butter customer, more so then a onetime friken tandem!

What kind of plane?, what part of the country (state)

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[davelepka 4]

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I payed for my AFF as a 25 jump package for my A license. I don't want to sound like im complaining too much as the instructor is awesome and very informative and so are all the staff

That's jacked up. Your instructor is informative because it's his job, and he would be just as informative if you were actually jumping. Not to pile on, but in my opinion, you're getting hosed two ways.

First off, if you made an appointment to be at the DZ at a certain to make your student jumps, you should take your place in the line-up when you arrive, and jump when it's your turn. People arriving after you should not be jumping before you, and the DZ should not be scheduling too many people at one time.

Second, if you paid for the entire course up front, they should make it a priority to get you up in the air. You did your part in full, pay the bill, up front and now that they are holding your cash, they should be doing their best to get you up.

Tandems do make money for the DZ, but so do students. Students who pay for all the jumps up front make the most money for the DZ. I'm guessing you paid close to 10x the price of a tandem for your package, and they should treat you as such.

The bad news for you is that it won't get any better once you have your license, except for the fact that you can take it and jump somewhere else. Fun jumpers make very little money for the DZ, and generally are the first on the chopping block when the tandems/students start to get backed up.

[TLH3 0]

my instructor is a tandem master and a full time one at that but i dont feel im getting sub par instruction. I just realize the tandem thing is how they make their money but i feel a little misled that a license package was not a priority to them.

i guess i will have to take more days of work to get jumps during the week when they have more instruction time.

[diablopilot 2]

Have you tried expressing this to the instructor? How about the DZ management? I'm betting they will work with you, it is possible they don't understand the issue properly.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[stratostar 5]

NO that is BS. take time off of work to jump weekdays.... Here what you should do, waltz in there and walk right up to the owner or owners and ask for your money back minus the jumps you've done. And when they stand there looking stupid ar you and ask why, then you tell them why.... and take your pre paid AFF jumps to the other DZ.

If you would tell us what state your in we could help you find another dz before tell these guys to fuck off.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[jaffo 0]

I actually had a simular issue 9 years ago that contributed to my leaving the sport. I'm coming back now, but we'll see how it goes.

I was taking friends to Skydive Texas in 2001 for their first Tandem. I was paying full price for their tandem and all I was requesting from the DZ was to put me on the same load. (not small planes, otter and porter)

I was paying for tandem, video and my up jump. I had to throw a fit when I got bumped from a load on the 4th tandem I paid for in a month.

I said screw it and didn't go back to that dropzone. But then again, they were kinda clickish back then...

Take chances, just do it with all the information to make good decisions!!

Muff Brother# 2706 Dudeist Skydiver# 121.5

[mrbiceps 0]

I feel for you mate, i went through this exact same scenario and it sucked. I asked for my money back at one stage. You probably should tell them what u are feeling but it wont do any good, they wont change. They have your money and u are now a 2nd priority. Let this be a lesson to all potential aff students. Visit as many drop zones as u can and watch what is happening, speak to the current students and ask them how many jumps they are doing in a day and if they are happy. Going for the dz with the most and biggest planes is usually the best option. If u had asked me these questions during aff i would have told you to get in your car and drive away. For all the dzs that treat the students like this U SUCK. Out of the 6 students in my aff class 0 of them jump at that dz now because of this reason.
If these fools had half a brain they would see that a student that is going to jump at the dz for years to come regularly is worth more to them than a dam tandem.
Good luck anyway mate and hope u get your jumps n

[Amazon 7]

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I feel for you mate, i went through this exact same scenario and it sucked. I asked for my money back at one stage. You probably should tell them what u are feeling but it wont do any good, they wont change. They have your money and u are now a 2nd priority. Let this be a lesson to all potential aff students. Visit as many drop zones as u can and watch what is happening, speak to the current students and ask them how many jumps they are doing in a day and if they are happy. Going for the dz with the most and biggest planes is usually the best option. If u had asked me these questions during aff i would have told you to get in your car and drive away. For all the dzs that treat the students like this U SUCK. Out of the 6 students in my aff class 0 of them jump at that dz now because of this reason.
If these fools had half a brain they would see that a student that is going to jump at the dz for years to come regularly is worth more to them than a dam tandem.
Good luck anyway mate and hope u get your jumps n

Truthfully.... the DZO's who follow this business model don't give a shit. They only tolerate the kool aid drinkers who act like good little lap dogs and put up with it as they progress to being the next crop of instructors who also believe in the business model so they can be "professional skydivers" and live that tandem dream.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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NO that is BS. take time off of work to jump weekdays.... Here what you should do, waltz in there and walk right up to the owner or owners and ask for your money back minus the jumps you've done. And when they stand there looking stupid ar you and ask why, then you tell them why.... and take your pre paid AFF jumps to the other DZ.

If you would tell us what state your in we could help you find another dz before tell these guys to fuck off.

TLH3, listen to this guy. This is what you need to do. They have your money. It's bullshit they keep bumping you. I make almost as much on an AFF jump as I do on a tandem. Make them treat you right. We don't pull that crap at my DZ.

[LongWayToFall 0]

I have had problems with a DZ hot loading their plane in the landing area, and doing a fast 3 or 4 loads. You get on load one, but by the time you are packed load 3 or 4 is full. I understand wanted to save the engines by not shutting down, but waiting until you have a whole bunch of tandems waiting around and then doing them all at once is kinda rough.

Big planes aren't always a good thing, at the end of the day when the up jumpers want to put up a load sometimes you can't get enough people together. A DZ with a big plane and a cessna both, is cool.
To the OP, are you jumping a cessna? If so, why don't they put you up at the end of the day? Usually tandems start slowing down later.

[jimmytavino 16]

not sure i ever understood the sense of "paying Up front" for a whole bunch of training skydives...


Maaaybe for AFF only... and if it's a 20 % or MORE discount....

but never for a deal that carries,,,,, until 'you're licensed.'


What if you find that the sport does NOT apeal to you, ??
or that you're NOT gonna be able to continue,, for one of many reasons,,,
financial,, or injury, related to jumping or not..or "domestic" issues, plain old fear,, or plain old "lack of the needed attributes to continue on".. in this sport.
or your employment or living situation changes....

It always bugged me to see dzo's grabbing that big payment and then caring less, whether the person "makes it " or not..
Not everyone is cut out for this sport, and the natuiral selection process has a way of finding that out...sometimes in 2 jumps , sometimes in 20

All the enthusiasm in the world,, sometimes isn't enough to see one through the process to becoming a regular jumper..

I admire and appreciate your persistence and am not trying to dissuade you...
Either (cordially) request some consideration, or request a refund,, ( if you CAN ) (any 'fine print' to any of the details which you may have agreed to, when first signing up )??
Could be the fee is non refundable,, in which case that w ould really burn me up.... since once a place has your$$$ , they actually have an incentive,,,,, NOt to service you,, and to dance around it, with " Oh NEXT time" or "sure thing, come back Next weekend", etc etc until a person simply says 'the hell with it' and gives up...
Better to "pay as you go" and only if you're happy and feel like you're progressing...

good luck.. keep working at it. let us know when and If you get that License..

jmy
A 3914
D 12122

[Fast 0]

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To the OP, are you jumping a cessna? If so, why don't they put you up at the end of the day? Usually tandems start slowing down later.

Yeah, see, you aren't really getting it. He paid for something, he should be getting it.

They have no excuse to make you sit around. If you were on the schedule, they should have staff there to jump with you and they shouldn't push you out of the way to do tandems. Now, if you are just showing up at the DZ and saying "hey I want to jump today" that might be different. At my DZ we do the best to get people who just show up wanting to jump in the air, but sometimes it takes awhile. If they schedule a few days in advance we are able to make sure we have enough staff to get them in the air in a timely manner.

I'd also suggest that you inform them adequately of the problem, explain why it's bothering you and what your course of action will be if they don't fix it.

Or keep getting pushed around, it's up to you.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[quesera 0]

Wow, that sucks. That is not the way my DZ works AT ALL. I show up at my scheduled time, the instructor is there to meet me, we go over the material, and we jump. Walk-in tandems get told to schedule a slot for another day, because the tandem slots are booked and all the instructors are busy. The only time we're sitting around waiting is when the weather isn't cooperating.

You are paying way too much to be treated so poorly. If you have another DZ, go there. If you don't, I guess you're sort of stuck, but I would agree with everyone that you need to bring it up with the manager. Unless all they ever want to be is a tandem mill, they had better treat their jumpers with more respect.

Even on a nice day in the middle of the summer, our loads are probably 60% licensed jumpers and AFF students. There are lots of tandems coming in and out, but they have pre-booked time slots, and they don't get to bump anyone.

[Hvance 0]

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not sure i ever understood the sense of "paying Up front" for a whole bunch of training skydives...


Maaaybe for AFF only... and if it's a 20 % or MORE discount....

but never for a deal that carries,,,,, until 'you're licensed.'

I will say in my case it made a lot of sense to buy an A license package. For one thing, I was able to do 3-4 AFF jumps on a per-jump basis before I had to commit to it. And I ended up saving about 30%.

As to being able to jump, it's been fine overall. Even on days with 70 tandems, I've been able to jump. They do prioritize AFF. Just my $.02 from my experience.

I wish Google Maps had an "Avoid Ghetto" routing option.

[rwieder 0]

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Im a AFF student and was wondering if bumping the students to make room for tandems is a common practice in the industry.

Get over it!

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[usernametaken 0]

Quote

Quote

not sure i ever understood the sense of "paying Up front" for a whole bunch of training skydives...


Maaaybe for AFF only... and if it's a 20 % or MORE discount....

but never for a deal that carries,,,,, until 'you're licensed.'

I also know for a fact that more than few Dzs offer that package in 7 days! Granted, these are the larger "resort" Dzs like, SDC, Perris, and Spaceland (to name a few). Smaller DZs may make a difference for obvious reasons but that doesn't make it right, especially since they have your money. You've received some great advice from some long-time jumpers. Time to advocate on your behalf.

I will say in my case it made a lot of sense to buy an A license package. For one thing, I was able to do 3-4 AFF jumps on a per-jump basis before I had to commit to it. And I ended up saving about 30%.

As to being able to jump, it's been fine overall. Even on days with 70 tandems, I've been able to jump. They do prioritize AFF. Just my $.02 from my experience.

There are more than a few DZs (Perris, SDC, and Spaceland), to name just a few, that promise an "A" license in a week, weather permitting. Granted, these are all resort type DZs but it sounds like the money you might be losing from time off could possibly justify taking your money elsewhere. You have got some great advice from long-time jumpers, 3 word responses aside , I think it's time to advocate on your own behalf and speak up.

"Think like a man of action; act like a man of thought." -Henri L.
Bergson

[stratostar 5]

I really shouldn't post when I've been hitting the nitequil or drinking...

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[billvon 2,400]

>Im a AFF student and was wondering if bumping the students to make
>room for tandems is a common practice in the industry.

It was when I started, although I was doing static line. Unfortunately, DZO's don't make as much on recurrent student jumps as they make on tandems. Some DZ's are better than others; sounds like you might want to look at other DZ's in the area.

[LongWayToFall 0]

I understand he should be on the loads. My question is though, what are they telling him at the end of the day when everyone is free? We are tired? He should be able to get a couple jumps in during the day and several more later.

[jimmytavino 16]

would be interested in what you might have to say


the "package price deal"
can work, as has been proven at LARGER dzs...

a problem might start when a smaller place, aspiring to be a bigger place, figures the way to do it is to copy what the bigger places are doing...

however depending on lift capacity, staff weather etc. sometimes the smaller places get overwhelmed.

a 182 has to fly 20 loads , just to make 80 jumps total.. , for the day
.. turn that into " eighty slots" and factor in TMs and their students,, and suddenly it could become difficult for the DZ and staff to "honor" the deal...as they should...
much of it depends on the size of the particular skydiving operation..

As has been pointed out,, it DOES work in some cases...

still, i dunno,...... i went one step at a time... buying jumps as i went, then working for jumps, then buying again, then working,,,,,
by not having Pre-Paid for anything...( especially not any 2,500 dollars!!)
i've never felt "i HAVE to go jumping"... it always been
jt
nscr 1817
4 stack 940