Recommended Posts
Ron 7
QuoteI've only been in the sport a short while, but I have yet to ever hear of anyone specifically that had a pc in tow from an uncocked pilot chute. Not saying it doesnt happen, but it happens so infrequenty, I cant see it being a pressing issue that needs to be addressed by going back to non collapsible pilot chutes.
I can think of several. One almost killed a friend of mine.
Here is another that did kill.
http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/search.asp?MinDate=11%2F1%2F2003&MaxDate=11%2F1%2F2003&Place=Coolidge
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
billvon 2,463
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>Wouldn't steeper glide plus unchanged forward speed equal
> increased overall speed? I don't understand how that is possible
> with the increased drag of a non collapsed PC.
If you extend the spoilers on a glider and re-trim for the same speed, you'll have the same airspeed but a steeper descent. Canopies have a very strong tendency to stay at the same airspeed (given the same loading.) "Forward speed" is generally synonymous with airspeed.
> increased overall speed? I don't understand how that is possible
> with the increased drag of a non collapsed PC.
If you extend the spoilers on a glider and re-trim for the same speed, you'll have the same airspeed but a steeper descent. Canopies have a very strong tendency to stay at the same airspeed (given the same loading.) "Forward speed" is generally synonymous with airspeed.
Do you think those two instances warrant everyone going back to non collapsible pilot chutes?
I acknowledged in my 1st post, that I believe pc in tows from an uncocked pc can and do happen, it just that IMHO it doesnt happen very often, atleast not often enough to stop using collapsible pcs. That was and still is my ONLY point.
Also, as in your link posted, 1) it was said that it was "possibly" an uncocked pc, it wasnt stated as fact. I'm not arguing all "pc in tow" malfunctions are rare, I'm only stating I think uncocked pcs in tows are not a common occurance. Just becuase you know of several, doesnt mean that its common across the country. (Just as my not hearing of any in the north east in 5 years doesnt mean that it never happens either.........
So let me ask you specifically, do you think that uncocked pc in tows happen with enough frequency to warrant removing them from service and placing everyone back on non collapsible pcs, to elimnate the chance of this malfunction?
My answer is a clear "no".
And lastly, uncocked pcs in tow dont directly kill, they are only a link in a chain of events, when a fatality unfortaunetly occurs, there are usually multiple events that lead to it, not just one.
--
My other ride is a RESERVE.
I acknowledged in my 1st post, that I believe pc in tows from an uncocked pc can and do happen, it just that IMHO it doesnt happen very often, atleast not often enough to stop using collapsible pcs. That was and still is my ONLY point.
Also, as in your link posted, 1) it was said that it was "possibly" an uncocked pc, it wasnt stated as fact. I'm not arguing all "pc in tow" malfunctions are rare, I'm only stating I think uncocked pcs in tows are not a common occurance. Just becuase you know of several, doesnt mean that its common across the country. (Just as my not hearing of any in the north east in 5 years doesnt mean that it never happens either.........
So let me ask you specifically, do you think that uncocked pc in tows happen with enough frequency to warrant removing them from service and placing everyone back on non collapsible pcs, to elimnate the chance of this malfunction?
My answer is a clear "no".
And lastly, uncocked pcs in tow dont directly kill, they are only a link in a chain of events, when a fatality unfortaunetly occurs, there are usually multiple events that lead to it, not just one.
--
My other ride is a RESERVE.
Ron 7
Quoteacknowledged in my 1st post, that I believe pc in tows from an uncocked pc can and do happen, it just that IMHO it doesnt happen very often, atleast not often enough to stop using collapsible pcs. That was and still is my ONLY point
You said: "I've only been in the sport a short while, but I have yet to ever hear of anyone specifically that had a pc in tow from an uncocked pilot chute"
And I said I have heard of it, know a guy that almost got killed and several others that had mals.
I then added link to a fatality that the USPA thought was started by not cocking the PC
QuoteAlso, as in your link posted, 1) it was said that it was "possibly" an uncocked pc, it wasnt stated as fact
From the link and the USPA:
"The first and foremost preventable factor was the initial pilot-chute-in-tow malfunction. Most often - and apparently the cause of this instance - the problem results from not fully seating or cocking the inner bridle on a kill-line collapsible pilot chute. "
QuoteSo let me ask you specifically, do you think that uncocked pc in tows happen with enough frequency to warrant removing them from service and placing everyone back on non collapsible pcs, to elimnate the chance of this malfunction?
Did I SAY that? No, I did not. You said that you know of none, and I said I know of several. And I gave a link to one that killed that the USPA thinks was a result of a noncocked PC.
Now to answer your question.
No, I don't think its such a "death trap" that no one should have one.
However people should know that if they are jumping a boat where the benefit of the device is little to nothing that they would be safer without having a High Performance device that can cause a problem when they don't need it.
Way to often people buy a collapsable PC when they don't need one, and never even gave a second to think that they don't need it and it could cause problems.
In cave diving we had a saying that unless you *needed* it, and if it *could* kill you then don't take it.
I'd say that most PC in tows are the direct result of someone not cocking the PC.
Quote
And lastly, uncocked pcs in tow dont directly kill, they are only a link in a chain of events, when a fatality unfortaunetly occurs, there are usually multiple events that lead to it, not just one.
Right, but a smart person removes as many links as soon as they can. Again fromt he USPA:"From the link and the USPA:
"The first and foremost preventable factor was the initial pilot-chute-in-tow malfunction. Most often - and apparently the cause of this instance - the problem results from not fully seating or cocking the inner bridle on a kill-line collapsible pilot chute. "
A person bouncing can be due to an AAD not firing, but the first link is why they didn't pull, not the AAD.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
A question from a newbie. Can't this be advoided with a proper gear check. I know that when you cocked a PC it changes the color of the line next to your main closing pin. If you include checking the line along with your other safety checks, this should reduce the chances of a PC in tow?
_________________________________________
www.myspace.com/termvelocity
www.myspace.com/termvelocity
Quote"Forward speed" is generally synonymous with airspeed.
Here is where I misunderstood your statement. I considered forward speed the magnitude of the horizontal component of the canopy's velocity.
Still, same speed with steeper glide means the canopy is not producing as much lift as with a collapsed PC.
For Great Deals on Gear
QuoteStill, same speed with steeper glide means the canopy is not producing as much lift as with a collapsed PC.
Not quite. It means the L/D ratio is lower, like you said before. More drag, not less lift. The lift equals the jumper's exit weight (on a main, anyway). It's not quite true because of the vertical component of drag, but it's close enough. Lift + vertical component of drag = exit weight. Also assumes unnacelerated flight, so of course it's only true when you're sitting there flying straight.
Doesn't matter if you have a xaos 21 or a manta 288...
Dave
This isn't directed specifically at you Chris (though your input is welcome too 
I asked this in the "Red or Silver" thread, but no one responded with an answer.
When I was jumping my Strato-Star 30 years ago, I made myself a cotton deployment bag that would slide up the bridle and invert when it hit the pilot chute, covering it and negating its drag.
See this link for a picture of that canopy with the bag over the pilot chute:
I asked this in the "Red or Silver" thread, but no one responded with an answer.
When I was jumping my Strato-Star 30 years ago, I made myself a cotton deployment bag that would slide up the bridle and invert when it hit the pilot chute, covering it and negating its drag.
See this link for a picture of that canopy with the bag over the pilot chute: [url]http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/gallery/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Personal_Galleries/RogerRamjet/Under_Canopy&image=Sturgis.jpg&img=&tt= ">This isn't directed specifically at you Chris (though your input is welcome too
I asked this in the "Red or Silver" thread, but no one responded with an answer.
When I was jumping my Strato-Star 30 years ago, I made myself a cotton deployment bag that would slide up the bridle and invert when it hit the pilot chute, covering it and negating its drag.
See this link for a picture of that canopy with the bag over the pilot chute: [url]http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/gallery/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Personal_Galleries/RogerRamjet/Under_Canopy&image=Sturgis.jpg&img=&tt=
Is this not possible with current gear?
-----------------------
Roger "Ramjet" Clark
FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519
I asked this in the "Red or Silver" thread, but no one responded with an answer.
When I was jumping my Strato-Star 30 years ago, I made myself a cotton deployment bag that would slide up the bridle and invert when it hit the pilot chute, covering it and negating its drag.
See this link for a picture of that canopy with the bag over the pilot chute:
I asked this in the "Red or Silver" thread, but no one responded with an answer.
When I was jumping my Strato-Star 30 years ago, I made myself a cotton deployment bag that would slide up the bridle and invert when it hit the pilot chute, covering it and negating its drag.
See this link for a picture of that canopy with the bag over the pilot chute: [url]http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/gallery/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Personal_Galleries/RogerRamjet/Under_Canopy&image=Sturgis.jpg&img=&tt= ">This isn't directed specifically at you Chris (though your input is welcome too
I asked this in the "Red or Silver" thread, but no one responded with an answer.
When I was jumping my Strato-Star 30 years ago, I made myself a cotton deployment bag that would slide up the bridle and invert when it hit the pilot chute, covering it and negating its drag.
See this link for a picture of that canopy with the bag over the pilot chute: [url]http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/gallery/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Personal_Galleries/RogerRamjet/Under_Canopy&image=Sturgis.jpg&img=&tt=
Is this not possible with current gear?
-----------------------
Roger "Ramjet" Clark
FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519
QuoteNot quite. It means the L/D ratio is lower, like you said before. More drag, not less lift. The lift equals the jumper's exit weight (on a main, anyway). It's not quite true because of the vertical component of drag, but it's close enough. Lift + vertical component of drag = exit weight. Also assumes unnacelerated flight, so of course it's only true when you're sitting there flying straight.
If the canopy is desceding more quickly without increasing the overall velocity, lift has been reduced. The faster descent rate implies a smaller force exerted upward (lift).
For Great Deals on Gear
While this is technically correct. The kill line can often shift just enough so the color doesn't show when cocked and packed. I have jumped many times when, during my final gear-check before putting my rig on, that the mark is white instead of blue. I know for a fact it is cocked however since I do it twice during my personal packing procedure. Once, when I first coccoon the canopy and put it on the ground and once again after the canopy is bagged and the lines are stowed. Plus I give the PC a quick flick of the wrist to make sure before I fold it as well. I have always had a kill-line PC in my rig since jump 26 and have never failed to cock it.
________________________________________________________________________________
when in doubt... hook it!
when in doubt... hook it!
skymedic 0
QuoteA tandem drogue has to collapse before opening the canopy. With a full inflated drogue, the canopy opens too hard (can even damage the canopy).
No shit??? I didn't know that....
question wasn't directed at you.....
Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....
apley 0
Quote***
I keep waiting for the "what if the kill line breaks?" comments to pop up since some people seem to think that the PC collapses instantaneously if the kill-line goes.
my kill line broke a few weeks ago. the deployment felt a little weird... off-heading and a feeling of "surge". no noticable difference in handling my pilot 140 (WL 1.4:1), but i haven't flown the pilot enough yet to be fully intimate with its flight characteristics.
just to satisfy the curiosity of those wondering, "what if"?
i've also had a pc-in-tow. being jump #60, THAT was a major pucker. to chop or not chop before reserve deployment, that is the question. one debated highly in these forums. my decision was correct, cause i lived. i was happily ignorant on the subject at the time, so the terror was somewhat mitigated...
apley 0
QuoteQuoteHow about malfunctions when pilot chute gets under the nose of the canopy? Will uncollapsed PC cause a problem?
i had one a short time ago... damn thing turned and dived (dove?) toward the ground... as murphy would have it, a potential collision with another tracking jumper put me in the basement on that one, and there was just enough time to chop and pull silver.
i believe that the real cause of the pc ending up under the nose was a serious out-of-trim situation. i had 650 jumps on this beautiful spectre and all of the signs were there, i just chose to blame them on packing and/or body position. when your canopy starts surging/bucking, doing off-heading openings, have a rigger check out the lines! it's worth the minor effort and expense.
i hate hiking in those damn mountains!
Jurgen
Share this post
Link to post
Share on other sites