Responsibility in the landing pattern

[billvon 2,434]

>relying on 'following someone else' (which is a different animal than
> flying in pattern) for anything more than determining landing
> direction is asking for trouble...

I recall 300+ people doing just that, with all sorts of canopy loadings - and in 20+ jumps we never had a problem. Don't make the mistake of assuming that if you can't do it, others can't either.

>someone at 1.0 trying to follow another's pattern at 1.6 (even
> with 'standard legs' and the same wing) will be waaaaay out of
> position . . .

Hmm. I load at almost 2:1 and have no problem following other people's patterns, even if they are loaded at 1 to 1 - as long as they fly a standard pattern.

>comparing planes in this regard is silly... a plane can always apply
>or reduce power and change trim to maintain position relative to
> another... canopies have fewer options to abort or go around...

Gliders use the same sorts of patterns; it works well for them.

The argument that "the pattern doesn't work" just doesn't fly (no pun intended.) It works well, and has worked well for the past 80 years or so. It can be tempting to think that you are part of a new, radical wave that no one else understands, but all too often people discover the hard way that the things that have worked over the past 80 years (or past 15 years, in skydiving) are there for a reason. A lot of the SIM was written in blood.

[billvon 2,434]

>about a half a minute ago, that you are on a heading and at an
>altitude which would have you landing downwind and off the landing
> area (to the North).

At my DZ, the first person down sets the landing direction, so if you want to use the main area you must be prepared for a downwind landing if the first person so sets it.

>You know the wind direction. Set up to land into it and to not hit
> anyone.

Again, does not work at many DZ's that use either windsocks or first-jumper-down rules.

>You land downwind and off the landing area. People come out to
> collect you and you say: "I thought the guy in front of me was going
> to land off and downwind and I was following him!" ?

The scenario you present is, to me, a non-issue. If everyone lands safely, then the goal has been accomplished. But what have these two people done to the rest of the load? They have now seen two people (perhaps the first two people down) land in two different directions. Where is the downwind leg? Where's the base leg? Which direction should one land? Downwind with guy B or upwind with guy A? If he follows guy A but ten other people follow guy B, is it safe to land facing them?

Use of a standard pattern can avoid all these problems, which is good - because problems like these can (and do) lead to canopy collisions and fatalities.

[GreenLight 5]

Quote

I'm confused. How can a gear dealer or a manufacturer do anything to fix a problem in the landing area?

They are the ones promoting the activity and supplying the equipment to do it with. They must take some of the liability on what effects they have on the industry and it's users.

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[GreenLight 5]

Quote

Again, does not work at many DZ's that use either windsocks or first-jumper-down rules.

This is the part that aggravates me the most. It's just plain wrong to allow ANYONE to deliberately set the landing direction down wind... That is just plain stupid in my mind and should not be allowed at all. I don't mind sharing the LZ with high speed canopies but please do not ask me to land down wind on purpose. And if it is the DZs policy to promote this, they are opening themselves up for a lot of extra liabillity by deaming this activity appropriate. There goes the waiver right out the window. So the DZO actually has a vested interest in seeing to it that policies don't go against the SIM or any other widely practiced safety precautions.

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[PhreeZone 15]

Is downwind in 2-3 mph winds really that big of an issue?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[GreenLight 5]

Come to me when your knees are 54 years old and ask me that question if you are still jumping....

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[goose491 0]

Quote

>relying on 'following someone else' (which is a different animal than
> flying in pattern) for anything more than determining landing
> direction is asking for trouble...

I recall 300+ people doing just that, with all sorts of canopy loadings - and in 20+ jumps we never had a problem. Don't make the mistake of assuming that if you can't do it, others can't either.

[just for fun]

Paraphrasing the above:

"You don't have the skill to make a 87 velocity act like a manta 289 or vice versa. I do."

[/just for fun]

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[goose491 0]

Quote

>about a half a minute ago, that you are on a heading and at an
>altitude which would have you landing downwind and off the landing
> area (to the North).

At my DZ, the first person down sets the landing direction, so if you want to use the main area you must be prepared for a downwind landing if the first person so sets it.

You are paraphrasing very very very poorly Bill and you won't convince anyone that the proper thing to do is follow somone blindly into a situation you cannot manage. Go to my diagrams. At point Y I AM NOT ON FINAL AND I AM NOT PLANNING ON LANDING DOWNWIND. YOU HAVE STATED THAT IF I LAND WITH A 180, YOU WILL BE CONFUSED AT POINT Y BECAUSE YOU THOUGHT I WAS LANDING DOWNWIND (and OFF) AND THEN DIDN'T.

Now if you would simply address the ONE concern I have I would really appreciate it. I have repeated several times now what my landing pattern is and asked you to tell me how it would confuse another jumper. I'm not using some strange dialect here am I? Stop messing around with what it is I have described, I drew a nice picture so nobody is being fooled when you use words like "if you turn onto final and then snap a 180"

Go to the diagrams and tell me specifically what differs from POINT X TO POINT Y and why you think you would be confused if you were following a jumper to Point Y when he/she initiated a turn. Because this is the question I have asked you to help me be a safer canopy pilot!!

Quote

The scenario you present is, to me, a non-issue. If everyone lands safely, then the goal has been accomplished. But what have these two people done to the rest of the load? They have now seen two people (perhaps the first two people down) land in two different directions. Where is the downwind leg? Where's the base leg? Which direction should one land? Downwind with guy B or upwind with guy A? If he follows guy A but ten other people follow guy B, is it safe to land facing them?

It is not a non-issue, it is exactly the results YOU yourself have described to my landing technique confusing a jumper behind me. Personally, I think jumper B in this scenario is a MONKEY and I don't think anyone in the pattern is going to chose to follow him... after all, he followed me all the way along my downwind leg thinking I was on final. Bwahahaa!

Now because you have modified my question so many times so as not to answer it properly. I will have to wait until monday to see your response. I hope I don't hose anyone at Point Y this weekend.

Have a great, safe weekend everyone!!!

Nick

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[billvon 2,434]

>It's just plain wrong to allow ANYONE to deliberately set the
>landing direction down wind...

If there is almost no wind, it is often safer to land the 'standard' direction (i.e. north) than to land into the wind if it is out of the south. Why? Because it is safer to have everyone land in one direction than have everyone land into the wind, which may change four times in the course of one load landing. Landing downwind can get your jumpsuit dirty, but generally a canopy collision is going to ruin your day.

>but please do not ask me to land down wind on purpose.

Many DZ's ask you to do just that. Fortunately, their policies are generally advertised, so you can choose to not jump in places (like Perris, Elsinore etc) that have such policies.

> There goes the waiver right out the window.

Read that waiver before signing it! Most say that they have no liability even if they do something you consider to be stupid. The video waiver we use says that explicitly. Again, this works out in the long run - you can simply choose to not jump at DZ's that place landing in the same direction over landing into the wind.

[skybytch 259]

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They are the ones promoting the activity and supplying the equipment to do it with.

So a gear dealer should refuse to sell and manufacturers should refuse to build anything higher performance than (for example) an F111 9 cell loaded at less than 1.0? Taking the sport backwards isn't the answer.

Gear dealers sell what their customers want to buy. If they don't, they go out of business. Manufacturers design and build what their customers want. Again, if they don't, they go out of business.

You can't blame this problem on either one.

[Zenister 0]

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It can be tempting to think that you are part of a new, radical wave that no one else understands

it has nothing to do with a 'new radical wave', but thanks anyway for the strawman.

It has to do with fundamental spacing and clearance for your intended maneuver, a principles that hasnt changed at all.. the only thing 'new' is the amount and geometry of space required for a high performance approach (one that combines DW,B& F in a tighter area) on a modern wing vs the space required for a large docile square flying long 'standard' DW,B & F legs....

proper spacing, awareness and recognition of space required LONG BEFORE the actual turn, is what appears to be lacking for some... once again if we should be focusing on the education and awareness instead of simply stating "270s are bad um' kay..."

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[GreenLight 5]

Quote

You can't blame this problem on either one.

I didn't.. However, you came up with a perfect solution to the problem... And it wouldn't involve making a new landing area for the swoopers. Everyone could enjoy the same landing area and no one would be dissappointed... Just let the "Big O'l Boats out LAST"... I think that's a great idea and I would accept that just fine and dandy... We could declare that we are going to land into the wind and want out AFTER anyone who thinks otherwise...

There we go..

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[nate_1979 9]

But how about the "big 'ol boats" that wanna fly with the HP canopy guys? Just cuz some people are conservitive with their conopy selection does not mean they dont wanna enjoy some crazy freefall with the HP folks...

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[skybytch 259]

Quote

But how about the "big 'ol boats" that wanna fly with the HP canopy guys?

No problem. After you open, sit in brakes and wait for the smaller, faster canopies to get below you. It doesn't take long.

[nate_1979 9]

Quote

No problem. After you open, sit in brakes and wait for the smaller, faster canopies to get below you. It doesn't take long.

That works, I guess

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[PhreeZone 15]

Depends on how many of the HP pilots are filming tandems or in Wingsuits. Hang in breaks too long and you get in their patterns, don't hang in breaks and you are messing with everyone elses pattern. Exit order should'nt change due to canopies unless everyone is doing the same thing to maximize horizantal seperation on opening. Around here it seems that the "Big boats" tend to be beginners, or older jumpers. Both groups which are doing RW and the freefliers tend to have the faster canopies. Putting the boats hanging in breaks since they are first out does'nt help anything, in fact it will just clog the pattern more. Yes if 2 4 way RW groups are in the plane the group with the faster canopies should go first.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 2,434]

>.. the only thing 'new' is the amount and geometry of space required
> for a high performance approach (one that combines DW,B& F in a
> tighter area) on a modern wing vs the space required for a large
> docile square flying long 'standard' DW,B & F legs....

I have a Nitro loaded at just under 2 to 1, and I don't need to compress my downwind, base and final into a small area. It flies just fine with a standard pattern and (if conditions permit) a 90 front riser turn to final. I assume your "tighter area" is a reference to a 180 or 270, and again, there is no problem whatsoever doing those manuevers - as long as you are not flying with traffic in a pattern. If you are, you have a responsibility to others in the pattern that goes beyond just "clearing your airspace." You also have a responsibility to fly a pattern compatible with others, so that all jumpers can land safely in the same direction. IMO of course.

[GreenLight 5]

Ya know Phreezone you dont really seem to be part of the solution... I think you just wanna stir shit up...

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[sundevil777 94]

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Ya know Phreezone you dont really seem to be part of the solution... I think you just wanna stir shit up...

Where did that come from?

Maybe you can read stuff between the lines that is invisible to the rest of us?

The 'big old boats' may be part of the big RW load that also has some swoopers on it.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[PhreeZone 15]

Actually I think part of the solution is the seperate landing areas. Another part of the solution is educating all the jumpers (not just the High Proformance pilots) on the right way to fly a pattern and a list of do's and dont's while in the pattern.

I'll take horizontial seperation on opening anyday. Putting out RW groups after Freefliers is far from the answer, mixing the exit order on canopy wingloadings is an even worse idea.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[skybytch 259]

Quote

Putting the boats hanging in breaks since they are first out does'nt help anything, in fact it will just clog the pattern more.

I fly a boat, and I hang in brakes often. I do both RW and freeflying so I could be leaving the plane first or right before the tandems. I'm aware of the canopies around me at all times; I fly my canopy as needed to maintain both horizontal and vertical seperation. I usually land last or close to last regardless of when I leave the plane. No one has told me that I created a problem for them - and believe me, some of them would if I did.

It's not difficult, and it does work.

[PhreeZone 15]

1 canopy in breaks is a lot different then 5-7 canopies in breaks I don't care if I go around 1 canopy... thats easy its when you get multiple canopies that things get fun and exciting.

Doing RW video and pulling in place at break off I've been getting a new prospective on canopy patterns. Flat out they really don't exist, out of the groups I film its really hard usually to find the entry points of most peoples patterns looking down on them. I see a lot of just playing around and a migration towards part of the DZ then all of a sudden people turn down wind at all sorts of spots. Some at the midfield mark, some at the far upwind edge of the DZ, others just turn in at the 2/3's mark but do it so low that they don't have a real pattern flow, its all just a turn to get into the wind and then they are at 75 feet and ready to land. Then you have some people that fly picture perfect patterns and I can follow them right in. Canopy size, age, even type of skydive does'nt matter.... pattern skills of everyone following line over X, turning to crosswind somewhere over Y and then at Z turn to final just don't happen.

I'm very guilty of snapping 180s when the time is right (and a few times when its not so right). I have had to tone them down a lot to fly with others nicely.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[sundevil777 94]

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I fly a boat

A thousand jumps and you fly a boat! Doesn't everybody downsize 5 times to a 2:1 WL by then?

I don't like approaching the ground quickly either.

I think we'll be able to keep jumping well into our old age.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[mjosparky 3]

Eric,

Not all people under canopy are "in the pattern". Depending on the spot, with multiple groups, they may be entering the pattern at different places. If they allow for separation and merge with the flow there is not problem.

As Bill has said before, entering the pattern, flying the pattern and landing needs to be predictable. This holds true for everyone, big canopies, little canopies and everything in between.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[PhreeZone 15]

Absolutly not everyone under canopy is in the pattern at all times. What I have an issue with is how people just seem to enter the pattern where ever they feel like it. Airplanes have outer and inner markers they use to determine where they need to be flying their pattern at, they don't just enter it 1/4 mile out this time and 1 mile out next time... I see canopy pilots doing that at almost every DZ I go to. If you are going to have a pattern the entry point to the downwind should be fairly close for everyone, not just anywhere you feel like having it. Same with the distance off the LZ to fly. Scott Miller's class does a really good job at explaining how to "split" an LZ so that left and right hand patterns can work together if needed due to merging groups and groups making it back and unable to do a left into the pattern. The trick is you fly off the LZ middle line by a few hundred feet (the distance you want your crosswind to be) and you don't cross that center line. This allows for both traffic patterns if need be. I constantly see people that fly over the LZ and in terms of a left hand pattern bring it as far to the right as possible to save a walk if the packing area is on that side. See it at home, saw it at the Ranch and at Dublin this year.

This is something that needs to be readdressed with all jumpers. I don't think that things like this are taught unless you go to an advanced canopy school and too many people would rather pay their money to fly in the tunnel or on a fancy new doo-dad then on canopy schooling.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com