Responsibility in the landing pattern

[pilotdave 0]

I think predictability is exactly the key. EVERYBODY should fly some sort of predictable pattern. A standard left/right hand pattern doesn't always work for swoopers. But they should have some plan, that they share with each other and everyone else. Separate landing areas just isnt feasable at many dropzones because there isn't room. But the non-swoopers, like me, need to know where the swoopers will be setting up and making their turns. I don't care if it's a rectangle as long as I know where to look for them and where to avoid. Where I jump, I know most swoopers like to swoop along the beer line. So it's easy enough to know to avoid that area if possible.

It's very common at airports to have two or three different traffic patterns for different types of aircraft. One for small planes, one for larger planes, and maybe another for helicopters. Just gotta know where to go and where to look out for everyone else.

Dave

[billvon 2,476]

>I was just thinking, how can someone on a big slow canopy do
> anything to cut off someone on a H/P pocket rocket?

They spiral hard to get just above the base leg of the pattern, then stop. I can easily spiral my Silhouette 170 and descend faster than someone one a 120ish sized canopy, if the 120 is flying a fixed pattern.

[Zenister 0]

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how can someone on a big slow canopy do anything to cut off someone on a H/P pocket rocket?

they sashay on final taking up 3-4 times the width of their canopy to try and hit their 'perfect' spot, instead of staying straight in their lane and allowing other, often faster canopies to land in lanes that would otherwise be clear beside them...

if you miss your turn and overshoot S turns to fix it is JUST AS (if not more) irresponsible in the pattern as anything a swooper could do... by that time a faster canopy might be damn near committed, and a sudden turn on the part of a 'lower, slower' canopy can cause a 'panic stab' to avoid....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[mjosparky 3]

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>I was just thinking, how can someone on a big slow canopy do
> anything to cut off someone on a H/P pocket rocket?

They spiral hard to get just above the base leg of the pattern, then stop. I can easily spiral my Silhouette 170 and descend faster than someone one a 120ish sized canopy, if the 120 is flying a fixed pattern.

Bill, I was talking about BIG canopies.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mjosparky 3]

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they sashay on final taking up 3-4 times the width of their canopy to try and hit their 'perfect' spot, instead of staying straight in their lane and allowing other, often faster canopies to land in lanes that would otherwise be clear beside them...

Re-read what you posted. A 270 is not staying straight in now is it? It they are below you they have the right-a-way.

Both are wrong in a pattern with traffic. But for some reason you can't see that.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Designer 0]

I agree 100%!Everybody who flies a parachute needs to ask themselves"Why am I not as Good a Canopy Pilot as I could be"?Treat yourself honestly when answering this Question."What can I do to be a better Canopy Pilot"?

[PhreeZone 15]

I have it happen almost every weekend. The first or second group out is some RW'ers with big canopies. I'm hopping out 3-4 groups later under a smaller canopy. By the time I get back to the DZ from being way out there they have decended to my level in the pattern. Now I have a canopy that is going a lot faster then they are, but they do S turns to land in the middle of the DZ so I have to avoid them as they are eratic from my point of view. To them it makes perfect sense for an approach into the peas to be set up over X at 200 feet and then to shasy back if the winds are less then expected, but to a canopy thats coming up behind them it looks like someone that keeps changing lanes on interstate to keep you from passing.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[beergood 0]

Sparky I guess I should have split the sentence up. I jump at a busy DZ and have seen the big poofy canopies come in from 400 different directions cutting each other off. Not one canopy coming in from 400 directions. They often get fixated on landing. They set up trying to hit the pees or something in deep breaks hanging right over the main landing area facing multiple directions and you have no clue what they are doing. Often seeing them make radical changes very low to the ground. To be honest I often go around them or land way out because I dont trust what they are doing. Also pull high and fly in breaks to let them burn it down to 2000 grand and float in deep breaks to the ground. This is not a slam on them just the fact that the hated H/P swooper is not the total problem I think we are all searching for the best possible solution. Like I said in my original post the pond was built right in the main landing area. Which I think is a large part of the problem. Build it and the H/P canopies will come and they dont mind walking!

[kallend 1,683]

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I have it happen almost every weekend. The first or second group out is some RW'ers with big canopies. I'm hopping out 3-4 groups later under a smaller canopy. By the time I get back to the DZ from being way out there they have decended to my level in the pattern. Now I have a canopy that is going a lot faster then they are, but they do S turns to land in the middle of the DZ so I have to avoid them as they are eratic from my point of view. To them it makes perfect sense for an approach into the peas to be set up over X at 200 feet and then to shasy back if the winds are less then expected, but to a canopy thats coming up behind them it looks like someone that keeps changing lanes on interstate to keep you from passing.

The peas, like the swoop pond, should be away from the main landing area. Then people doing "normal" approaches and landings won't mix with those doing chassés, or the swoopers.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[goose491 0]

Okay Bill,

I think we have misunderstood eachother and have different scenarios painted. First off, I do not "snap" anything. A quick review of my posts will reveal what I describe as a smooth, continuous carve through base and final turns on the fronts.... but whatever.

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And a smart jumper will set up his pattern to match the pattern landing direction the first jumper is flying

Fixed that one. It is not considered "smart" of me to simply follow another jumpers pattern. If I am "smart", then I realize that different canopies have different flight characteristics and different jumpers have different wing loadings. It is unreasonable to expect my canopy to perform the same way as that guy in front of me.

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If you fly your pattern so as to give a false impression that you are landing north, then you turn low and land south, you are forcing that person (and all the people following _him_) to change their patterns very suddenly. This leads to collisions.

This is the part I think we are misunderstanding eachother on. I do not think I have ever caused someone to think I was landing downwind when I wasn't. I have drawn some lovely pictures for you since I am at... work. lol

In the first one, you've got a nice, predictable left hand pattern. Note that point X is where you would initiate your turn to base leg. The second shot is what I do now. Note that point Y is where I would initiate my carve through 180. Admittedly, point Y would probably be 50 to 100 feet lower than X but do you note the wind direction? Do you note I'm running out of field to the North and I'm still at about 500 ft? lol. Tell me that you are above and behind a jumper approaching point Y and that you think he/she's landing North... I will tell you you need to re-think it... that's not skygod complex Bill. The only difference between X and Y is roughly 50 to 100 feet vertical!

Please explain the difference in perspective if you are following me in the first scenario versus the second. What makes you so sure, in the second scenario, that we will both be landing North?

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[goose491 0]

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Turning onto final joining the pattern on the downwind leg and then, at 400feet 500 feet, snapping a 180 initiating a continuous, smooth carve through base and onto final is (IMO) being erratic and unpredictable.

I have fixed the inaccuracies in your description of my landings. Funny, I don't recall describing them like that. The info I have striken out is all you. I described my landing technique and truthfully, you have butchered it.

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What signal do you give someone above you to tell them that you are about to snap a 180?

None (I don't snap a 180)... But to answer your question with a question, what signal do you give someone above you to tell them that you are about to turn onto your base leg?... because my 180 CARVE is initiated only a matter of seconds after I would initiate that turn.

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"You don't have the skill to handle my unpredictable behavior."

Once again, you have butchered my posts in trying to paraphrase and it even hurt a little. This is not what I said at all.

But I invite you to view my pretty pictures a second time (I think I did a pretty nice job

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And what's this 1000 feet thing?

Your example.

Now Bill, or anyone else really, please explain... Because I am open-minded and truly don't understand what my actions are doing to confuse other jumpers.

Nick

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[diablopilot 2]

In a shared landing area, a responsible "swooper" begins his/her "set up much higher than they make their turn. I frequently find myself at 1800 agl watching the landing pattern, and holding or turning to put myself in the "gap" between groups landing.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[mjosparky 3]

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Now Bill, or anyone else really, please explain... Because I am open-minded and truly don't understand what my actions are doing to confuse other jumpers.

Nick

I think the problem is you are not using the same definition of a 180. What you show in your #2 drawing is not a H/P 180 to landing. It is a standard pattern with the sharp edges taken off. Your #3 drawing is a H/P 180.

Do you think with less than 250 jumps you should be doing 180 H/P landing at all? Not a slam, just asking.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 2,476]

>>And a smart jumper will set up his pattern to match the pattern
>> the first jumper is flying

>Fixed that one. It is not considered "smart" of me to simply
> follow another jumpers pattern.

I fixed it back, and this is the basis of our disagreement. If I am closely following someone on a Stiletto 120, and he does a 180 at the correct swoop altitude for a high performance landing, I CANNOT safely follow him and switch directions. I have a higher loading and a longer recovery arc than he does. The only way I can land the same way he does is to figure out which pattern he is flying ABOVE his swoop altitude, then match my pattern to his. I can't safely turn when he snaps off his 180 or 270 if I am close to him.

>If I am "smart", then I realize that different canopies have
>different flight characteristics and different jumpers have different
>wing loadings. It is unreasonable to expect my canopy to perform
> the same way as that guy in front of me.

I agree; not all canopies fly the same. But I have flown a Cessna 152 in an uncontrolled pattern with a King Air and had no problems. Good pilots can anticipate what other planes will do, even if their planes are of vastly different performance levels - AS LONG AS everyone flies the same pattern.

To answer your question - if you do a 180 such that you are flying a discernable downwind, then you turn the correct direction to fly a discernable base and final, and then stay on final for a few seconds before landing, then that's fine - you are flying a pattern. That pattern would work fine for an airport as well. But when people discuss high performance 180's, they are NOT talking about a nice, twenty second, 300 foot radius toggle turn - they're talking about a front riser turn, which drops you and turns you very rapidly. That is the sort of manuever I have a problem with in a busy pattern.

[Zenister 0]

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they sashay on final taking up 3-4 times the width of their canopy to try and hit their 'perfect' spot, instead of staying straight in their lane and allowing other, often faster canopies to land in lanes that would otherwise be clear beside them...

Re-read what you posted. A 270 is not staying straight in now is it? It they are below you they have the right-a-way.

Both are wrong in a pattern with traffic. But for some reason you can't see that.

a 270 (combining dw,base,final) takes up little horizontal room and much more vertical space. If set up properly, it should occur completely 'outside' of anyone elses landing pattern until the final portion where it might be parallel to someone who flew 'straight in'. It (the 270 should also occur inside a clear space that does not interfere with anyone elses pattern.

S turns on final however take up a VERY large horizontal area and a much smaller vertical one, by the time a slower canopy is performing these S turns (almost always very late into final when they 'suddenly become aware' they are going to overshoot) everyone in the pattern is so low that they have few options available..

of course if the slow and sluggish would simply learn to judge their legs properly they wouldnt have to S turn at all

and if swoopers fly to their set up properly they have plenty of space for whatever turn they are performing without interfering with anyone else..sometimes this means spiralling to create space, other times it means hanging in brakes to create the room you require...and sometimes that space simply isnt available and shouldnt be performed at all. In any case, it is the swoopers responsibility to perform their turn in a large enough area that no one else's pattern is affected.... despite the witchhunt it CAN be done safely. Spend a busy day on the ground and watch the experienced swoopers if you doubt... most are very particular about clearing their airspace... when was the last time you saw a slow 'accuracy' boat even look over their shoulder to see who they were screwing??

once again lack of proper spacing for the maneuver you are performing is a problem no matter what your landing technique

anyone who is simply 'following' another canopy, or even following so closely that a 'unexpected' 180-270 turn is an issue (out side of CRW) instead of flying their place in the pattern themselves, needs some basic canopy/pattern coaching..

relying on 'following someone else' (which is a different animal than flying in pattern) for anything more than determining landing direction is asking for trouble... someone at 1.0 trying to follow another's pattern at 1.6 (even with 'standard legs' and the same wing) will be waaaaay out of position

comparing planes in this regard is silly... a plane can always apply or reduce power and change trim to maintain position relative to another... canopies have fewer options to abort or go around...

unless you are swooping a tiny canopy in the first place, its unlikely you'll be anywhere near to the first or second canopy down... and so you should be well aware of the landing direction before you even enter the pattern... if you are aware of the basic landing direction determining any given canopy's turn is MUCH easier...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[mjosparky 3]

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Spend a busy day on the ground and watch the experienced swoopers if you doubt..

I jump at a busy DZ with some of the best swoopers in the world. They do not cause a problem because they know better then to mix a 270 in a busy pattern.

Lets cut to the chase. With 500 jumps and 3 years, you are not what is considered an experienced swooper. You probably have less then 2 or 3 hundred on your present canopy. You can post pages of crap about it being safe but you are the type of low experience person trying it that makes it so unsafe. Have you noticed you are the only one doing this?

Now I am done with this, time to let it go.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Zenister 0]

ah the sky god attitude appears oh well guess the discussion is really over, claim a superior position despite the facts and pretend you are correct....

yet, amazingly, somehow, even with multiple planes in the air, the experienced swoopers at DZ's all over the world, STILL manage to perform their 270s safely, even in 'busy' patterns (check BV's definition of 'busy') and yet a single tragic incident and the witchhunt starts...

sad really.. maybe you should spend more time watching how the experienced swoopers at your DZ make their turns and STILL remain 'safe' and then, perhaps, you'll recognize the problem is exists in the process, and NOT in any specific technique..

i'm the only one arguing because i'm the only one with the patience to argue with those who have already made up their minds DESPITE years of experience and a very, very few number of incidents.. might be because i'm interested in expanding the education for EVERYONE, instead of the chicken little 'safety nazi' attitude that says 270s are simply not safe...

sometimes the attitudes displayed by the 'experienced jumpers' on this site are so far from the reality of modern skydiving its simply laughable...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[goose491 0]

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To answer your question - if you do a 180 such that you are flying a discernable downwind, then you turn the correct direction to fly a discernable base and final, and then stay on final for a few seconds before landing, then that's fine - you are flying a pattern. That pattern would work fine for an airport as well. But when people discuss high performance 180's, they are NOT talking about a nice, twenty second, 300 foot radius toggle turn - they're talking about a front riser turn, which drops you and turns you very rapidly. That is the sort of manuever I have a problem with in a busy pattern.

I cheated on the diagrams. The radius of my turn was exagerated and I guarantee it takes less than 20 seconds. I just don't need to be flamed about it on here because of my jump numbers and it's not relevant to the discussion you and I are having.

The purpose of the diagram was to compare the initiation points of the two techniques (relative the winds and landing area) and have you explain to me how one is more confusing to a following jumper in terms of the intended landing direction. I don't want to be causing confusion in the pattern with my flying.

Follow me to point X and you should anticipate that I'm about to turn to Base. Follow me to point Y and at worst, you might be thinking: "Why hasn't he turned base yet?" for about a second when... there I go! Wether it be a continous carve or a snappy toggle hook (blech! )...

You said that if you were above and behind me, you would think I was landing North and I didn't understand.... I still don't really.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[goose491 0]

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I fixed it back, and this is the basis of our disagreement. If I am closely following someone on a Stiletto 120, and he does a 180 at the correct swoop altitude for a high performance landing, I CANNOT safely follow him and switch directions.

This is why you should not just follow the guy in front of you blindly. Nevermind the fact that you CANNOT safely switch directions when he does, the real problem in the above-scenario is that you didn't anticipate, about a half a minute ago, that you are on a heading and at an altitude which would have you landing downwind and off the landing area (to the North).

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I have a higher loading and a longer recovery arc than he does.

Valid reason not to follow him blindly. Without consideration for wind direction and placement on the field.

Your arguments are more valid if the Swooper is initiating the snap at like mid-field or on the upwind end - stupid move though.

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The only way I can land the same way he does is to figure out which pattern he is flying ABOVE his swoop altitude, then match my pattern to his.

You know the wind direction. Set up to land into it and to not hit anyone. if you follow a jumper to the downwind end of the field and think the idea is that you are going to land this way, than you have put yourself in a bad position. You could not blame the jumper in front of you for not checking the wind direction or considering your placement relative the field. He snaps a 180 to land into wind and with some actual room on the field and you are left unable to get turned around...

You land downwind and off the landing area. People come out to collect you and you say: "I thought the guy in front of me was going to land off and downwind and I was following him!" ?

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[skybytch 259]

Y'know, if people would stop blamestorming and instead focus on possible solutions, this thread might be useful again.

There's a problem - high performance landing set ups and standard landing patterns don't mix well in the same airspace. What are some possible solutions? What can every jumper - those who do high performance landings and those who don't - do to fix the problem?

1) Landing order - try to land with other canopies of the same class/wingloading as yours. Swoopers first, mid range next, big ol boats last. Spiral or fly in brakes as needed to achieve spacing.

2) Be predictable. Fly your pattern the same way every time. Let others know when you plan to alter it (ie do a high performance landing approach instead of the standard pattern you normally do).

3) Insist that your dz at least informally designate a seperate high performance landing area, with a setup area clear of the standard pattern of the regular landing area. Limiting this area to north/south or east/west landing directions depending on predominant wind direction will increase the predictability of the people using it.

4) Don't hog the pattern or the landing area. Plan your pattern and approach so you don't interfere with anyone else's pattern and approach. This means no spiraling below 1000', no S turns on final, etc. The only exception to this is if you know you are the only canopy in the air.

5) If a landing direction has been predetermined or already set, use it. Don't chase the wind indicator.

Please add to this list...

[Pendejo 0]

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1) Landing order - try to land with other canopies of the same class/wingloading as yours. Swoopers first, mid range next, big ol boats last. Spiral or fly in brakes as needed to achieve spacing.

2) Be predictable. Fly your pattern the same way every time. Let others know when you plan to alter it (ie do a high performance landing approach instead of the standard pattern you normally do).

3) Insist that your dz at least informally designate a seperate high performance landing area, with a setup area clear of the standard pattern of the regular landing area. Limiting this area to north/south or east/west landing directions depending on predominant wind direction will increase the predictability of the people using it.

4) Don't hog the pattern or the landing area. Plan your pattern and approach so you don't interfere with anyone else's pattern and approach. This means no spiraling below 1000', no S turns on final, etc. The only exception to this is if you know you are the only canopy in the air.

5) If a landing direction has been predetermined or already set, use it. Don't chase the wind indicator.

6) Anyone CAN land if necessary in either the swoop area or the non-swoop area.

I know that at first this sounds like it defeats the purpose of having separate landing sites... But I overheard a low time up jumper tell his buddies he took a down winder cause he was trying to stay out of the swoop area.

If 6) happens and you are the swooper landing in the non-swoop area - don't swoop...

If 6) happens and you are the non-swooper landing in the swoop area - don't spiral to 200ft and just sit above the landing area (and this goes as well for making "S" turns).

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[GreenLight 5]

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sometimes the attitudes displayed by the 'experienced jumpers' on this site are so far from the reality of modern skydiving its simply laughable...

And here in lies the problem. You think you have invented "Modern Skydiving" and you know so much about what you are talking about you refuse to listen to the voice of experience. You seem to think that we "experienced jumpers" will simply die off or go away. Do you really think that after a third of a lifetime or more of skydiving we will simply go away? WRONG! We will change this problem! I guarantee it buddy. We've done it before and we'll do it again. I promise you that soon, very soon, you will start to see changes around the country in the way the "Swooper Problem" is handled. Death was never a good thing for this sport although it used to keep a lot of dum asses away. Now it seems to attract the dum asses.

I call out to everyone reading this thread to protest swooping in the main landing area at their DZ this last Saturday of the month by landing into the wind and talking to your DZOs about this problem. Tell your DZO that you demand that Swoopers get their own landing area as far away from the main landing area as possible....... We will not overcome this problem if we don't stand up and talk to the only people who can hellp us change things. The DZOs. After all, the dealers are doing nothing about it. The manufacturers are doing nothing about it. USPA will most certainly do nothing about it. The only one left who can change things are the DZOs.

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[Pendejo 0]

UMMMMMM, WOW! Great post! That would really be a great answer to the problem!

Ok... Sarcastic remarks aside...

Skybytch put it best... How about we talk about what we can do to improve the situation.

(edited cause I was stupid and miss-spelled her screen name)

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[skybytch 259]

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After all, the dealers are doing nothing about it. The manufacturers are doing nothing about it.

I'm confused. How can a gear dealer or a manufacturer do anything to fix a problem in the landing area?

Instead of placing blame on anyone other than ourselves, doesn't it make more sense for everyone, regardless of preferred landing method, to accept that we are all part of the problem and work to fix it?

[goose491 0]

I see the problem very much likened to the time when snowboards first started becoming popular.

At first, snowboarders were wild and crazy grunge punks with no respect for your lines and no regard for safety on the slopes.

Ski resorts disallowed the use of a snowboard on their hills. Their explanation was that the turns that a skier makes going down a hill make a tighter and shorter wave. That the pattern the Snowboarders made conflicted directly with skiers making collisions nearly impossible to avoid. It was also "common knowledge" that snowboards went quite a bit faster than a pair of skis. (complete hogwash btw, a set of skis is absolutely faster for all intents and purposes.)

Boarders slowly gained access to ski resorts but were met with attitude by skiers who just... didn't get it.

Today you will find a great mix of skiers and snoboarders (even snow-blades) on every ski hill. The designated areas for snowboards only have absolutely nothing to do with conflicts, rather, a set of skis will ruin the finish of a half-pipe... that sort of thing.

In the futur, we will see everyone using the same landing area, relatively safely.

NOTE: we draw a rectangle to show the "pattern" but we understand that "final" does not have to beee all the way over on the one side of the field right? In fact, "final" can be anywhere laterally along it so as to avoid conflicts right?... and to have good outs?

Lightly loaded wings coming in on a very distignguished and predictable pattern will understand not to take their base legs ALL the fucking way over to the other side of the field before turning final because there are people making 270s in that corner and coming onto final much faster then they are... and from a little higher.

To add to that, it is already NOT a good idea to take your base leg all the fucking way over to the other side of the field because it leaves you no outs should you find yourself too low to complete your turn to final someday.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!