Learning from Each Other

[Shotgun 1]

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Much of this advice is just plain wrong, and the newbies don’t know enough to know it’s wrong.

I see this sort of statement a lot, and every time I see it all I can think is... Are there really that many people out there with no common sense??? (And if there are, it seems like they shouldn't be jumping out of an airplane in the first place!)

If I decided I wanted to learn how to snowboard, went to the mountain and met one person who had been snowboarding every day for five years and one who had learned how to snowboard two days ago... I might ask advice from both of them, but I would assume I could put a lot more trust in the advice from the person who had a lot more experience. Seems pretty simple to me.

When I have a problem, I try to get information from as many sources as possible so that I can make an informed decision on my own, especially with something as dangerous as skydiving. To me, that just seems like common sense...

[kelpdiver 2]

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If I decided I wanted to learn how to snowboard, went to the mountain and met one person who had been snowboarding every day for five years and one who had learned how to snowboard two days ago... I might ask advice from both of them, but I would assume I could put a lot more trust in the advice from the person who had a lot more experience. Seems pretty simple to me.

If the shredder was an instructor type...otherwise it's quite possible that this person has "forgotten" all the basic skills you need because he just knows them by rote.

My snowboarding experience lasted 4 hours, then I ran for the double planks. On that, I know I couldn't effectively teach a new skier how to snowplow. I do it as rarely as conditions allow.

Running with the snow analogy - a lot of accidents happen when a less experienced person chases after his role models. The problem is that they see where the target is now, not where they were. On a ski run, that could mean taking a nice cruising S shaped descent and flattening it out into a route that is much much flatter and steeper.

[Reginald 0]

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Much of this advice is just plain wrong, and the newbies don’t know enough to know it’s wrong.

I see this sort of statement a lot, and every time I see it all I can think is... Are there really that many people out there with no common sense??? (And if there are, it seems like they shouldn't be jumping out of an airplane in the first place!)

Ah, but see that's the problem. The lack of common sense creates a situation where they don't know they shouldn’t be doing something.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[mjosparky 3]

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Much of this advice is just plain wrong, and the newbies don’t know enough to know it’s wrong.

I see this sort of statement a lot, and every time I see it all I can think is... Are there really that many people out there with no common sense??? (And if there are, it seems like they shouldn't be jumping out of an airplane in the first place!)

Ah, but see that's the problem. The lack of common sense creates a situation where they don't know they shouldn’t be doing something.

And quite often it is just an arrogant, "I know it all" attitude and they really believe they have it handled.
I have watched it happen over and over in the last 25+ years. But as equipment got better and freefall and landing speeds got faster the price paid for a small mistake kept going up. When I went through that phase, "I've got this handled", I was very seldom in the air with more then 3 or 4 other people and landing a C-9 with a 7TU mod. I was able to survive the "head up my ass" period because the price for a fuck up was not to high. I broke both ankles, at the same time, and that acted as my wake up call.
Unfortunately, some of the new generation of "arrogant young punks" will not survive their wake up call.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 2,434]

> Are there really that many people out there with no common sense???

There aren't that many, but they exist - and they're often very visible, because they're the ones who take abysmal advice to heart.

>(And if there are, it seems like they shouldn't be jumping out of an airplane in the first place!)

Agreed. But just try to stop them.

[Shotgun 1]

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> Are there really that many people out there with no common sense???

There aren't that many, but they exist - and they're often very visible, because they're the ones who take abysmal advice to heart.

Then I think these people need to be taught that they should get lots of information from many different sources... not simply that they shouldn't take advice from other new skydivers. Thinking that your instructor is God and that he/she knows everything is also a pretty dangerous mindset to be in (IMO).

I think one of the most important things to realize when you first start jumping is that there is no one person that knows everything, and that some of the most experienced skydivers disagree with each other about certain things (so you need to hear all sides and make up your own mind)...

Of course, if they really don't have any common sense then they're not going to make good decisions based on any information... so they should probably be discouraged from skydiving - and perhaps even grounded at the dz if they present a serious danger to themselves or to others. (Yeah, I know... most dz's are not going to do that.)

[mjosparky 3]

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think one of the most important things to realize when you first start jumping is that there is no one person that knows everything, and that some of the most experienced skydivers disagree with each other about certain things (so you need to hear all sides and make up your own mind)...

I can't remember who said this but it has a ring of truth, "There are no experts in skydiving, all the experts are dead".

The best you can hope for is if you watch everyone, listen to what is being said and you might learn enough from your last jump to get you through your next one.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 2,434]

>Then I think these people need to be taught that they should
>get lots of information from many different sources...

That's a good idea in theory, but often these people are immune to advce that differs from their preconceptions - so they ask until they get a source that tells them what they want to hear.

>Thinking that your instructor is God and that he/she knows
>everything is also a pretty dangerous mindset to be in (IMO).

That's pretty much what we rwquire of students, though (and with the ISP, students are students for longer.) I agree that once you're on your own it's important to be able to discriminate between bad and good information. Hopefully by that point they've figured out who's good to listen to and who isn't.

>Of course, if they really don't have any common sense then they're
> not going to make good decisions based on any information... so
> they should probably be discouraged from skydiving . . .

I've tried that on occasion. Generally the only thing that works in those cases is grounding them, and I try to do that as little as possible.

[firstime 0]

I stand corrected, "I looked at the bottom of the plane and it got me stable" ??????? I can't see how
that was ill advised, but I will reiterate with "I look"
not "you should". Was that so bad. Did I say yank
your rear riser.. No! come on now!!!!

[NWFlyer 2]

Bumping this for the noobs... in case you think we cranky old farts have forgotten what it was like to be in your shoes. We haven't.

I wrote this 9 years and almost 1300 jumps ago. I'm not embarrassed by it, because I tried really hard to be thoughtful in how I posted it, but it didn't take me too long to figure out precisely where the "old timers" (some of whom are, 9 years later, still active posters) are coming from when they tell newer jumpers to maybe tone it down a bit with the advice-giving.

When we tell you to listen more, talk less, we're trying to help you get ahead of the curve and avoid looking back at your early posts 10 years from now and cringing.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[ianyapxw 0]

I don't know if you're talking about me, but either way I don't take offence. I've also only read this and the first post so I don't know what else the other 33 posts are about, so I'd assume you're talking about giving advice here.

I believe whether advice is good/bad is very specific and case-by-case, but I believe a lot of advice from newbies is either an 'Ahh' moment or just copy-paste from what they've heard from an instructor. Sure, I might give bad advice despite my best intentions but it's part of my learning process when someone calls me out and tells me what's wrong. I also gain a fuller understanding in a matter of which I taught I could advice others on. It gets even better when people start sharing stories, and sourcing claims.

If we limited the posting of advice to anyone with 10 years in the sport, would we see better advice being given out? Perhaps. Could I just shut up and let others talk? Perhaps. Do I feel that in a dynamic community with people discussing and debating issues, even if people say cringe-worth things, people are going to learn most? Definitely.

[ridebmxbikes 0]

You should read the whole thread! It has a lot of good information about giving advice!

And yes, you do learn a lot when someone corrects someone's advice and also completely explains it. But what if no one catches you? Now we have another person with ill and even less complete understandings.

Read the whole thread!

[jumpsalot-2 2]

Kbone

I don't mind listening to newbies give each other advice. I used to get annoyed but now I just laugh.

It's like listening to a 12 year old tell another kid how to drive.

At the end of the day, I really don't worry about it.
Every skydiver is over 18 years old, which makes them a legal adult capable of making their own decisions.

They can choose to listen to the guy with thousands of jumps or listen to the 20 jump wonder that just got off student status. It is their decision to accept their advice as fact or opinion.

If a rookie skydiver wants advice from a seasoned vetran, they will ask! If he just wants to "shoot the shit" with the low timers, let them have their fun!

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I vote this as "BEST POST" in this thread .......

Life is short ... jump often.

[NWFlyer 2]

ianyapxw

I believe whether advice is good/bad is very specific and case-by-case, but I believe a lot of advice from newbies is either an 'Ahh' moment or just copy-paste from what they've heard from an instructor. Sure, I might give bad advice despite my best intentions but it's part of my learning process when someone calls me out and tells me what's wrong. I also gain a fuller understanding in a matter of which I taught I could advice others on. It gets even better when people start sharing stories, and sourcing claims.

Would you accept the premise that there's more than one way to skin that proverbial cat and that maybe the one you've chosen is problematic? Instead of giving advice and being corrected, couldn't you ask an additional question/clarifying question? Or could you say "Is this the right way to think about it? [and present what you think is right]" That way you learn, and it also confirms that you're an inexperienced person who's also trying to learn.

Credibility is earned not just through time and experience but also through how you communicate your ideas and teach. Something to think about if you hope to stick around in this sport and earn that credibility.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[ianyapxw 0]

NWFlyer

Would you accept the premise that there's more than one way to skin that proverbial cat and that maybe the one you've chosen is problematic? Instead of giving advice and being corrected, couldn't you ask an additional question/clarifying question? Or could you say "Is this the right way to think about it? [and present what you think is right]" That way you learn, and it also confirms that you're an inexperienced person who's also trying to learn.

Of course I agree with that, but people give advice on things they think know. In this thread I'm not speaking of myself only but I'm trying to generalise for everyone. Even the 500/1000 jump person might not know what he doesn't know. I feel an open communication where all levels participate is the best way for everyone to learn, be it by bad examples or good examples.

Most people would ask questions about what they didn't know, especially in such a sport.

On another note, I'd rather not participate in this thread, as I feel it's too much of a case-by-case thing and discussions will lead to nit picking on semantics. I'm cool to discuss by PM.

[Scrumpot 1]

Well, here it is folks... Definitive look-back illustration of approaches, and posters in here who have approached things from totally polar-opposite sides of the equation.

On one side, Sangi
Then the other, here with Krisanne

Great thread resurrection here, Krisanne!
You all can decide for yourselves which side of this equation you would like to be.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone