Sticky D-Bag - AFFI knocked it out.

[osmrwangs 0]

Hey all,

This is my first post. I was at Perris Valley Skydiving School on Sunday. It's been over a year since my Level 2 AFF so I was re-starting the process with a fresh first jump course... which by the way, is better than the first one I took at a different DZ.

So on my 3rd AFF jump in about a year and a half, I had an okay exit, arched into a good dive and got through my 3 practice pulls plenty high (above 9k), so I got to hang out and enjoy the rest of the dive.

At 5300, I waived off and pulled. Waiting... (still see my main side AFFI near me)... waiting... still no float. Then, just as I looked at my altimeter, I went vertical and I had a nice canopy over me.

Great ride down and a stand-up landing near the center of the student landing area.

When I got my debrief, I was told that the delay in opening was because my d-bag was stuck and my reserve side AFFI (veteran Jim Wallace) knocked it out.

Jim hopped on another load after we landed and I didn't get a chance to thank him or ask what happened... so umm... Thanks Jim!

My question for the community is... how often does this happen and what would you do solo to try to get the d-bag out if it's not being pulled out by the pilot chute before initiating emergency procedures?

Bag lock was covered in both first jump courses, but a stuck d-bag with a pilot chute out wasn't a scenario I thought of.

My initial reaction when I sensed that I should be vertical was to look for the chute, then look at my altimeter. If Jim hadn't knocked my d-bag loose, I'm sure I would have been all over my handles.

Thanks in advance for any insight and advice.

[davelepka 4]

There can be a few reasons for a 'stuck bag', and the majority of them are not going to be a problem for long. Sometimes student rigs are stuffed with too big of a canopy. maybe the rig was built for a 260, but they needed an extra 280 or 290 rig, so they swap the canopies over. Now the bag fits 'snug'.

There could have also been a sacked out pilot chute. Again, student gear is generally 'well used', and if a PC has lost some of it's 'life', combined with a big, heavy student canopy can lead to a 'stuck bag'.

Finally, the combined burble of you and your instructors can also contibute to a PC not getting as much 'bite' as it normally would. As you can see, losing an instructor (on your next jump or soon) will go a long way toward preventing this in the future. If it happens while you are solo, checking over your shoulder for your canopy can sometimes give the PC a chance to pull a little 'sideways' and pop the bag out. You can also reach back with an elbow and give the side of the main container a quick shot.

Keep in mind that while this is going on you're still falling at terminal. Visually checking will only reveal a towed PC. You won't be able to tell if the pin is pulled and the bag is stuck, or if the pin is in place and you have a true PC in tow. Elbowing the container will also take time you may or may not have.

Getting into your own rig will help tremendously. Select your container size to easily fit the canopies you intend to jump. Use a PC of the correct size as reccomended by the manufacturer, and make sure the the rig is properly assembled, packed and maintained.

[osmrwangs 0]

Thanks Dave,

I am 6'3" and 215, so they had me jumping a big-boy with a 280. I'm not yet keen to the potential packing issues with canopies that size, but I do know that the container I was jumping was a little different than even the containers for the 260's.

Given that I had a soft, stand up landing, would you think that my AFFI's would allow me to jump a smaller container/main on my next jump?

My only concerns with the big container was whether I could maintain an easy arch. I wasn't thinking that the container/canopy combo could lead to a stuck/sticky bag.

[davelepka 4]

Don't sweat the gear issues, that's what your instructors are for. If there was truely a problem with a rig, they're the guys who will raise hell about it because they're the guys who have to reach in there and pop the bag out of the container.

Shit happens, and there's not much you can do about it. In the world of student rigs and multi-instructor jumps these things happen from time to time. That's what the instructors are there for. It's a double edged sword where they both casue and solve the problem.

Jump what the instructors tell you to jump. A smaller canopy in a smaller rig would have the same chances for the same problem, which are pretty slim.

[osmrwangs 0]

Thanks for the insight, Dave. I am sure that I will be jumping whatever my instructors settle on, BTW... ;-). So, I guess I have more of an out there question about whether big boy rigs are more likely to have this happen?

I was very fortunate to have two VERY seasoned instructors... (*A couple of old guys *their words*... diving since the 1970's) and I am grateful for their quick reaction to my high speed mal.

BTW... my 2nd AFF... I had a couple of good line twists (which I dealt with), so I am getting used to mals. My guess is that an unstable pull on my 2nd AFF was the reason I had twists... but I will leave the analysis to the experts. ;-)

I'm 2 for 3 on mals... eesh. Thanks to my instructors for good training and good attention in flight.

[Ron 7]

Not an issue.

The stuck bag could also have been due to the pilot chute not being able to get out of the burble created by the three of you. Without the two JM's (Or even one extra) it might have been nothing.

Doing AFF, I have seen PC's float around in the burble till I grabbed them or pushed them out.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

... I waived off and pulled.... (still see my main side AFFI near me)...

A common cause of this problem.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 2,400]

Happens sometimes. It happened a LOT on the old military rigs with the smaller springloaded PC. I would either "tip" the student upright to help the air extract the bag or nudge it out. Since these rigs tended to release their lines at the drop of a hat, it was a little scary since you had to avoid all the lines snaking around.

A larger PC solved the problem.

[riggerrob 558]

What type of main deployment system were you jumping?
Was it a main ripcord?
Was it BOC hand-deploy?

I cannot remember which system Jim Wallace is using, but I do remember converting all of PVSS' student rigs to BOC hand-deploy back in 2001.

Either system can suffer pilot-chute hesitations in the low-speed, burbly air over the student's back.
Rip-cord operated, spring-loaded pilot-chutes used to hesitate all the time, which is why CSPA policy requires the main-side instructor to start traking away as soon as the main handle is gone. That reduces the size of the burble.

Hand-deploy pilot-chutes can suffer similar hesitations if the student does such a sissified, girly, limp-wristed, half-hearted toss that the pilot-chute never catches clean air off to the side of his burble.

Usually both types - pilot-chute hesitation - are solved when the student changes the airflow as he looks over his shoulder to see why the main is taking so long to inflate.

One habit that aggravates either problem is students dragging pilot-chutes back from the landing field. Dragging just wears out pilot-chutes pre-maturely.

[osmrwangs 0]

Quote

What type of main deployment system were you jumping?
Was it a main ripcord?
Was it BOC hand-deploy?

BOC hand-deploy. I threw it out pretty good (so I thought).

I have had two instructors give me two different points of view on throwing out the PC.

One said to just throw it sideways as hard as possible.

The other said to hold it out and let it go.

On this dive, I threw it. I'd love to hear some input on technique, as there are obviously differing opinions.

Quote

One habit that aggravates either problem is students dragging pilot-chutes back from the landing field. Dragging just wears out pilot-chutes pre-maturely.

This PC seemed quite dirty when I landed, and I followed the excellent instruction I was given to gather in my lines, then canopy, then grab the bag/bridle/pc and put them on top of all of that before I hopped in the truck. The way I see it... that equipment will be on plenty of other jumpers and I need to take excellent care of it.

Just seeing the canopy dragging on the dirt clods made me want to advance so I can start landing on the grass. ;-)

[ataltitude 0]

One thing you got to remember student gear is to make money, not costing money in maintain, so the gear does get beaten up before any repairs/replace items are done.
As some people don't care for gear when its not theirs

[riggerrob 558]

"... I have had two instructors give me two different points of view on throwing out the PC.

One said to just throw it sideways as hard as possible.

.....................................................................

That is the better way to toss pilot-chutes.

[andyvaughn 0]

I was told to throw the PC like a live hand grenade that was about to explode in my hand...

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

I was told to throw the PC like a live hand grenade that was about to explode in my hand...

I teach, "this is he GF/BF that cheated on you...get rid of him/her!"

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Gary73 8]

Two very different situations here: Pilot Chute Hesitation and Pilot Chute In Tow.

PCH is caused by a weak throw or a weak spring (in ripcord systems).

PCIT on AFF 1 and 2 is virtually always caused by the main-side instructor hanging on after the pilot chute is deployed. His burble reduces the drag of the pilot chute enough to keep it from being able to lift the bag. As is taught in the AFF Instructor Certification Course, if the reserve-side instructor is present, the main-side instructor should always turn and track the instant the pilot chute is released. I've seen plenty of PCIT problems when the main-side hangs on, and none when he departs. Could be that's why we've been teaching it that way since the 1980s.

Oh, BTW, a line twist is only a malfunction if it's still there below 2,500 feet. Above that it's a nuisance.

Welcome back, and good luck with your future jumps!

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[Gary73 8]

I teach, "this is he GF/BF that cheated on you...get rid of him/her!"

Andy - Not sure that's the right comparison to make - some folks might want to strangle a cheating SO!

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[riggerrob 558]

Quote

I teach, "this is he GF/BF that cheated on you...get rid of him/her!"

Andy - Not sure that's the right comparison to make - some folks might want to strangle a cheating SO!

......................................................................

Naw!
Strangulation is the easy way out.
The cruelest thing I ever did to an "ex" was to let her live with all her physical and emotional baggage!
Hah!
Hah!

[theonlyski 3]

Quote

I was told to throw the PC like a live hand grenade that was about to explode in my hand...

Grenades are actually pretty safe... 3 safeties on them.

Depending which one is removed, might still be 'safe'


Just sayin'

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
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