Basic Air Concept - Fraudsters or genuine mistake?

[rjfrt 0]

Just so you know in advance, I am shocked at the behavior at "Basik Air Supply" - as seen advertising in magazines such as "the skydive mag."

If you want to see this post with images already in, it's also here:

http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk/cms/index.php?/topic/16497-basik-air-concept-fraud-or-a-genuine-mistake/.
I'm sorry, I couldn't work out how to add images and want to get some thoughts on this.

It started on September 10th when I was researching to buy a camera helmet, and seeing as I am currently living in France, Basik seemed like the sensible option. I found the helmet I was after on their site for a reasonable price of 376.66€ after delivery, and proceeded to contact them. They sent an invoice on 17th septebmer [below] confirming the price and asked for my payment details:

http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j428/basikair/Screenshot2010-10-20at131929.png

I provided details of my french card, which after over a week of waiting they informed me would not process. There is no reason for it to have failed as I had 400€ in the account, but this was supposedly the case. Instead they suggested I send a bank transfer, to which end I asked for their bank details and a confirmation of the total.

They informed me of the bank account number and told me the total was now: 450,76€ and my helmet is ready for dispatch. The reason the card didn't process was because they were charging nearly 80€ more than they invoiced me without permission or sufficient funds (fortunately) in the account.

I replied to ask why my price has increased by nearly 20%, to which Basik says that prices are ex-VAT, as they are on "all French websites". I am a student at a French business school, I have bought through numerous companies, I have spoken to my professors, this is NOT normally the case. But not only were the prices without VAT, but without even a reference to explain this. I searched every page on the site just a few days ago (15th October) to try and find this information and it was nowhere to be found. As a result, I told the salesman that I am sorry, but do not wish to go ahead with the order. That if I felt it was my fault I would have accepted my loss, but it was their fault for misquoting the figures in my invoice and failing to mention ex-VAT listings on their website.

This was his response:

http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j428/basikair/Screenshot2010-10-20at132005.png

What the company didn't realise is that a little function called Google Cache was able to show how the page looked before it was altered. Here it is on 22nd Sept, 5 days after I was invoiced:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:SVAY-fNDxPAJ:www.basik.fr/en/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26task%3Dview%26id%3D13%26Itemid%3D28+http://www.basik.fr/en/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26task%3Dview%26id%3D13%26Itemid%3D28&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk"]http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:SVAY-fNDxPAJ:www.basik.fr/en/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26task%3Dview%26id%3D13%26Itemid%3D28+http://www.basik.fr/en/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26task%3Dview%26id%3D13%26Itemid%3D28&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

And an image just in case it updates the cache before you check this:

http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j428/basikair/Screenshot2010-10-20at072710.png

And here is the site now:

http://www.basik.fr/en/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemid=28

And an image in case Basik change it:

http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j428/basikair/Screenshot2010-10-20at073128.png

Date-wise, 22nd September is just what I can prove... I checked this page less than a week ago and this "ex-vat" reference still wasn't contained. All I can say is, what a bunch of crooked traders.

Anyone had any similar experiences? I've never seen anything like it in 7 years of frequently buying online.

University of Nottingham Skydiving Club
Info: www.skydiveclub.co.uk Join: www.skysoc.co.uk
Shop: www.dinkystore.com/skydive.
.

[BillyVance 34]

Doesn't quite look like a clear case of fraud to me, but it does look like they handled your complaint badly via mis-communication and then changed the site to cover their ass. I could be wrong. I rarely buy skydiving stuff online.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[BKR 0]

Hi Jonathan,
what do you want exactly? To bash us, good try.
So as I have explained to you, you leave in France and you have to pay the VAT as any people living there. If you are from an EEC country you have to pay for it too. If you are from an EEC country with a valid VAT n° you are not charge for it. Let me explain one thing, all our customers LIVING IN FRANCE are ordering through the FRENCH part of the web site. Other customers are using the English speaking side.
So, my first mistake was to have not specify on the English part of the web site the way to deal with VAT because I never had to deal with such situation and even never think of this could happened. This is the reason why I have added this week the wording to have people be informed now. So I can just apologize for this mistake. Now as a person living in France you should be advised that VAT is added to any product prices if not I canot do anything for you.
The second mistake came from our side because the sale manager forgot to send to you the order confirmation as he mormaly does.
Let me tell you an last thing concerning your CC, it has even be denied for 50 euros when we went to take the deposit, so I think even without this VAT mistake there is a lot of chance for us to never been paid.
Sorry for my English but I wish you could understand the situation.

Regards

Jérôme Bunker
Basik Air Concept
www.basik.fr
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Le-Luc-France/BASIK-AIR-CONCEPT/172133350468

[BillyVance 34]

And there we have it. Situation explained.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[piisfish 135]

shoot a PM to BKR here, he is the owner, he is legit and a good person. He also has a good history of solving problems. I didn't go through all your post, but I bet he will get you a satisfactory answer.
edited to add : Jerome was faster than I was.
For VAT, if you purchase IN france, you have to pay it (similar to state tax when you purchase in same State in the US). If you purchased from another country it would have been different. As far as I remember, I always saw both prices quoted on his website (with and without tax) with a mention that the tax would be added on the invoice (IIRC)

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[BKR 0]

Quote

shoot a PM to BKR here, he is the owner, he is legit and a good person. He also has a good history of solving problems. I didn't go through all your post, but I bet he will get you a satisfactory answer.
edited to add : Jerome was faster than I was.
For VAT, if you purchase IN france, you have to pay it (similar to state tax when you purchase in same State in the US). If you purchased from another country it would have been different. As far as I remember, I always saw both prices quoted on his website (with and without tax) with a mention that the tax would be added on the invoice (IIRC)

This is true on the French speaking part of the web site, it has been forgoten in the English part. This customer live in France, Bordeaux..So he knows the rules.

Jérôme Bunker
Basik Air Concept
www.basik.fr
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Le-Luc-France/BASIK-AIR-CONCEPT/172133350468

[dragon2 0]

That's not just in France. If you buy a Tonfly helmet from their website, same deal. Then again you do not have to pay import VAT for your helmet either since you already paid it in France.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[doughboyshred 0]

I am shocked at your lame post.

You really should delete this thread, as you're attempting to slam a legit business over a minor mistake that you should have understood.

[rjfrt 0]

I apologise, I have been following this thread on uks. I have to ask whether you read the original thread doughboyshred or just took the summary provided by basik? I would suggest deleting your comment until you have read the entire thread both here and on UKS.

In an attempt to summarise: the company failed to provide the true buy price in the invoice, online checkout or at any point before demanding my card details. They tried to take more money from my card than was authorised and also tried to deceive me into believing that there was a reference to the price being ex-VAT, which was actually added around 2 days ago.

I have received no apology and as far as I was aware, this was a suspicious transaction before anyone else told me otherwise about the company's reputation, which it has smeared in the course of this purchase.

And I am not certain how I was supposed to be aware that the company makes more than the threshold at which VAT is applied - if it is under £76,000 then they wouldn't charge VAT. I understand how VAT works, I am not a moron, but you really don't believe I should have known how much they were actually charging to my card at some point before they tried to take an extra 80 euros?

On UKS Jerome has agreed that 4 separate mistakes by his company led to this error, but has still not apologised. This is what I would like to clear up now.

University of Nottingham Skydiving Club
Info: www.skydiveclub.co.uk Join: www.skysoc.co.uk
Shop: www.dinkystore.com/skydive.
.

[airtwardo 6]

He apologized in his post above...people make mistakes, i'd bet you've made a few here & there too... shit happens, get on with life.

...& it's seems from what the company reps says, your card didn't even work for the deposit, much less the actual amount ?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[rjfrt 0]

That's what gets me, I didn't even get told the deposit failed. I wasn't even told that they were going to take a deposit - just an email a week later to tell me that the full payment had failed.

I had completely forgotten that a deposit wasn't even mentioned - I didn't authorise a 50€ payment. It's just bull upon bull upon bull. For example - trying to trick me that I had messed up on the VAT documentation on the site.

The moment after Jerome posted the above message he sent an email telling me to shut up in not so few words. That's not my idea of an apology...

I just don't get this company. And with regards to "shit happens, get on with life" - I am getting on with life? What does that even mean, it's just an overused cliche. The aim of this was that hopefully I could save some other people a bit of their life in the process. And it WOULD be nice to get a decent apology.

University of Nottingham Skydiving Club
Info: www.skydiveclub.co.uk Join: www.skysoc.co.uk
Shop: www.dinkystore.com/skydive.
.

[format 0]

I say Thank You for your effort!

What goes around, comes later.

[mjosparky 3]

When did this site become the Better Business Bureau for skydiving related transactions over the internet?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[DSE 3]

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When did this site become the Better Business Bureau for skydiving related transactions over the internet?

Sparky

Gotta take the good with the bad. The same mechanism that allows USPA to inform everyone of changes, or allows us to gather news, incidents, share stories very quickly...also allows people like the OP to make genuine mistakes in attacking someone.
And in instances where someone is trying to commit intentional fraud, getting the word out faster is better, don't you think?
This thread is simply an illustration of foot-in-mouth-gone-worldwide (Something that we all do from time to time?).

[airtwardo 6]

And with regards to "shit happens, get on with life" - I am getting on with life? What does that even mean, it's just an overused cliche.

It's means basically that... if that's the biggest problem you have, and it's worth all the drama... I envy you!

You didn't lose any money, ya didn't get physically hurt...if you don't like the way they do business, don't do business with them.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

Quote

When did this site become the Better Business Bureau for skydiving related transactions over the internet?

Sparky

Gotta take the good with the bad. The same mechanism that allows USPA to inform everyone of changes, or allows us to gather news, incidents, share stories very quickly...also allows people like the OP to make genuine mistakes in attacking someone.
And in instances where someone is trying to commit intentional fraud, getting the word out faster is better, don't you think?
This thread is simply an illustration of foot-in-mouth-gone-worldwide (Something that we all do from time to time?).

The good and the bad I can handle. The stupid is getting old.



Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mchamp 1]

Quote

Quote

When did this site become the Better Business Bureau for skydiving related transactions over the internet?

Sparky

Gotta take the good with the bad. The same mechanism that allows USPA to inform everyone of changes, or allows us to gather news, incidents, share stories very quickly...also allows people like the OP to make genuine mistakes in attacking someone.
And in instances where someone is trying to commit intentional fraud, getting the word out faster is better, don't you think?
This thread is simply an illustration of foot-in-mouth-gone-worldwide (Something that we all do from time to time?).

I really do enjoy the way you approach so many situations! Logical, cool and calm rock on DSE!

For info regarding lift ticket prices all around the world check out
http://www.jumpticketprices.com/dropzones.asp

[DSE 3]

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I really do enjoy the way you approach so many situations! Logical, cool and calm rock on DSE!

You've mistaken me for Billvon or Skymama. But thank you, they're awesome benchmarks.

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

I really do enjoy the way you approach so many situations! Logical, cool and calm rock on DSE!

He does pretty good for a country boy for the wilds of Utah.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[DBCOOPER 1]

Fraudsters or genuine mistake?


genuine mistake...

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[GoofyJump 0]

It might be a genuine mistake, but is still the responsibility of the store to make things right. While the OP might be a little strong here, who sends an INVOICE and has the incorrect TOTAL? That to me is absurd and sloppy and if it were my business I would try to work with the buyer as opposed to asking them to understand their point of view.


The buyer shouldnt be fixing the sellers sloppy business practices, just my point of view

[DBCOOPER 1]

Hey Goofy the op only gave two choices

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[BKR 0]

Quote

It might be a genuine mistake, but is still the responsibility of the store to make things right. While the OP might be a little strong here, who sends an INVOICE and has the incorrect TOTAL? That to me is absurd and sloppy and if it were my business I would try to work with the buyer as opposed to asking them to understand their point of view.


The buyer shouldnt be fixing the sellers sloppy business practices, just my point of view

No invoice has been sent, it iwas just an automatic confirmation order sent by the web site. The invoice has been sent when goods were ready with the total amount INCLUDING the VAT. As I explained it was a bug in the English part of the web site concerning the way VAT has been calculated up to the situation of the buyer. I appologized for this problem.

Jérôme Bunker
Basik Air Concept
www.basik.fr
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Le-Luc-France/BASIK-AIR-CONCEPT/172133350468

[P-dro 0]

Personnally, I think this title of this thread should be changed (by moderators if need be), it is clearly established that Basik are certainly not fraudsters
They are well known in France by going the extra mile for their customers. That doesn't prevent from mistake like all businesses, but to call them fraudsters is unwarranted....