Scared myself bad yesterday

[tmarine253 0]

I am still a student with little experience "only 15 jumps" and I was jumping a new canopy yesterday, a Silhouette 190. I opened, the opening was a little hard but not bad, and I released the breaks, or at least i thought I did. I was steering the canopy fine but it was tough to pull down on each toggles. I opened at about 5000 feet and by the time I got to 1200 feet I pulled the left toggle to turn left to exit my holding area. Well when I did this the left brake then actually released. This caused me to begin spiraling toward the ground. I thought about cutting away but assumed I was too low. (these were the quickest thoughts I have ever had) and then for some reason I pumped the rear risers and then yanked hard on the right toggle which released it. The canopy straightened out and I landed safely. I jumped the canopy again right after this happened and the toggles were still hard to release but since I knew I could get them out I did just by pulling a lot harder. Does anyone have any suggestions on what I could have done differently in the spiral because it scared the shit out of me. And was 1200 feet to low to cutaway? Like I said I am still learning and very inexperienced which is why I am seeking some advice on here. Thanks.

[jsreznor 0]

yawn

[buff 0]

You need to go over the sequence of events with your instructor and the rig that you are using.

Students should not seek information from anonymous people over the internet. With out seeing the actual risers, toggles, etc... there is no one here that can tell you why.

Your instructor can also demonstrate to you how to stop the turn or spin and get the wing level. That's why you have him/her available to you at this level of your training.

It's called the Hillbilly Hop N Pop dude.
If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough.
That's fucked up. Watermelons do not grow on trees! ~Skymama

[wmw999 2,148]

If you got chewed out by your instructor, then find a different one. You're trying to learn, and there aren't a lot of things in skydiving that should be "obvious" at this time.

The one thing I'd suggest is to take some time to get more familiar with gear and how it works. It's what you're trusting your life to, it's better to figure out how the pieces fit together.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[TSISK 0]

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yawn

Nice

[jtnesbitt 0]

Not coming down on you, but a controllability check would have made this be a non-issue.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[tmarine253 0]

I did the controlability check and I could control the canopy just fine, the problem was I thought I had released the breaks and I had not. When the one break actually came out is when the problem occurred. I was just wondering what or if there are standard procedures for spirals and whether 1200 ft is too low or unsafe to cutaway at?

[AggieDave 6]

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I did the controlability check and I could control the canopy just fine, the problem was I thought I had released the breaks and I had not. When the one break actually came out is when the problem occurred. I was just wondering what or if there are standard procedures for spirals and whether 1200 ft is too low or unsafe to cutaway at?

Then you did not do a control ability check.

Gentle left turn, gentle right turn and full flare.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jtnesbitt 0]

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I did the controlability check and I could control the canopy just fine, the problem was I thought I had released the breaks and I had not. When the one break actually came out is when the problem occurred. I was just wondering what or if there are standard procedures for spirals and whether 1200 ft is too low or unsafe to cutaway at?

Then you did not do a control ability check.

Gentle left turn, gentle right turn and full flare.

Exactly. You couldnt have done a full flare if your toggles where still stowed. If you attempted it, and your toggles were stuck to the point that even a full flare didnt clear them, then the canopy would have stalled, or been on the edge of a stall.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[tmarine253 0]

It was a canopy I never have flown before and I did the gentle left, gentle right everything was fine. I did the flare, the toggles came to about chest level, and I thought it was just the way that those brakes worked. I did what I felt was a controlability check and therefore thought I was doing everything fine. I jumped the canopy again right after as stated above and corrected my actions. I was just looking for peoples thoughts on EP's in spiral and cutaway altitude.

[jtnesbitt 0]

I understand the question you are asking, because you keep repeating it

Keep in mind there are some of us that would rather make sure you dont have to ask that question in the first place, and the way to do that is to figure shit out up top and not in the basement.

Unfortunately I cant answer your question because it is so specific, and potentially deadly, that it depends on the situation and i think you need to speak to an instructor about it. On one hand, if you are spiraling in, and you cant control shit, so you cant land it. On the other hand, you are taught to never cut away under 1000 ft, so if you started an aggressive spiral at 1200ft you would be under 1000 ft in a few seconds.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[dgskydive 0]

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I was just looking for peoples thoughts on EP's in spiral and cutaway altitude.

Youll never get what you are looking for on this site. Just what you should hear...weather you want it or not.
Dave said. You did not do a check for controlability check. You only thought you did. Get it?

Dom

[tmarine253 0]

I appreciate you acknowledging the question. I hope that this type of problem wont happen again at such a low altitude. At my DZ I was taught that decision time was at 2500 ft. Either way I will continue to do what I am doing, this is the first problem that I had and corrected it on the next jump. I will talk to my instructor about it some more and see if he has any other suggestions.

[petejones45 0]

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Exactly. You couldnt have done a full flare if your toggles where still stowed. If you attempted it, and your toggles were stuck to the point that even a full flare didnt clear them, then the canopy would have stalled, or been on the edge of a stall.

not necessarily, some dropzones set up the toggles so students won't be able to stall the canopy

Look out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES!

[jtnesbitt 0]

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Exactly. You couldnt have done a full flare if your toggles where still stowed. If you attempted it, and your toggles were stuck to the point that even a full flare didnt clear them, then the canopy would have stalled, or been on the edge of a stall.

not necessarily, some dropzones set up the toggles so students won't be able to stall the canopy

You missed the point. The way DZs do this is by lengthening the brake lines. If the toggles were stuck to the point that a full flare didnt clear them, then you are essentially not flaring with the toggles, but flaring with rear risers since that is what you are pulling on. If you pull rear risers down to your chest or further you will stall the canopy regardless of toggle length.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[petejones45 0]

no i got the point i was just adding to the fact that you can't stall some student gear because of how dropzones rig it up

Look out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES!

[Programmer 0]

You're confusing a riser stall with a toggle stall.

[ManagingPrime 0]

Having a little difficulty understanding how you pull toggles down to chest level and they are still stowed. My guess is that the end of the toggle is still in the finger trap loop, is this correct?

[jtnesbitt 0]

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no i got the point i was just adding to the fact that you can't stall some student gear because of how dropzones rig it up

Thats not true. Reread my response to you, and you will see why in some cases, like this one, you still can. If you dont understand, have an instructor show you, as its much easier to understand visually.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[riggerpaul 1]

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It was a canopy I never have flown before and I did the gentle left, gentle right everything was fine. I did the flare, the toggles came to about chest level, and I thought it was just the way that those brakes worked. I did what I felt was a controlability check and therefore thought I was doing everything fine. I jumped the canopy again right after as stated above and corrected my actions. I was just looking for peoples thoughts on EP's in spiral and cutaway altitude.

If the toggles were still stowed, then you brought the toggles, AND THE REAR RISERS TOO, down to chest level?

I am 100% certain that you were never taught that this would happen.

Any canopy that you'll use during your student training will operate exactly like you were taught.

Others have mentioned that a proper controllability check would have revealed the problem.

Actually, even before you do a controllability check, you are supposed to unstow the brakes. (Maybe some will say that unstowing the brakes is part of the controllability check. That's okay. Either way, the brakes must be unstowed before making the turns.)

That involves a sharp tug on both toggles simultaneously. The toggles must come out of whatever keepers are involved, and they must pull the hard tab (at the top of the toggle) out of the brake loop/eye on the steering line.

Had you done that, one of a few things would have happened.

1) both toggles would have come unstowed - the desired and usual result.

2) one toggle would unstow, and the other would not - you'd start turning, and you wouldn't really be able to start your controllability check until you'd freed that other toggle. At this point, if you decided the canopy could not be controlled, you'd be at a fine altitude for a cutaway.

3) both toggles would stay stowed - really very unlikely, but possible. At this point, you would do a controllability check, and the flare portion would show you that the toggles were not working as expected. As mentioned in 2) above, now would be the time to decide if you are keeping the canopy or not.

As others have said, you should not be getting advice from dz.com at this stage of your training. You are a student, and you have instructors who are supposed to be teaching you what you need to know.

At this point, I hope you decide to seek out your instructor and ask to have a thorough refresher on what should happen at the beginning of your canopy flight. I think you'll find that you've forgotten some of what you were taught in your First Jump Course. That's okay. You got a lot of information in the FJC, and it is not at all unusual for some of it to be lost in the excitement of your first few jumps.

But, at this point, I hope it is clear to you that you have lost something, and it is time to go find it, and whatever else might have been lost as well.

[MorfiusX 0]

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Having a little difficulty understanding how you pull toggles down to chest level and they are still stowed. My guess is that the end of the toggle is still in the finger trap loop, is this correct?

Not that this is what the OP did, but this a similar example: On the PD Nav rigs, there is a pin for the toggle. Excess stowed line is looped around that pin. A student recently pulled the entire toggle trough the excess stow loop, which then knotted on the pocked on the back side of the riser. He said he performed his controllability checks, but the canopy was hard to steer. He was essentially performing a riser turn every time he used that toggle.

[Morne 0]

To the OP , Look up at your steering lines after you think they are unstowed to , you might just see they are not.

[Rover 9]

Ask yourself "What would Travis Pastrana do?"

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[tmarine253 0]

When I pulled the toggles and turned the toggle lines were moving. However they did not come down as far as I had been used too. When I pulled the toggles to my chest, the risers did not come with them, I would have noticed that. I guess this is a situation I cannot explain on a forum. I do not feel I have not retained information that I had learned form my instructors. I perform controlability checks everytime, as I did or atleast thought I did on this jump. The canopy responded as if I did a controlability check. I will go over this with my instructor again as stated above. I do appreciate the comments.

[wmw999 2,148]

I think that more than anything this is a result of not understanding the gear. If the previous rig he jumped had much higher toggle pressure and doglike performance, then its being that hard to pull down wouldn't necessarily surprise him.

So learning a little about gear mechanics helps here.

Back in the days of rounds, we had a student who said that he couldn't find the toggles at all; landed with no control. Turns out that the rig he had, the toggles were run through the connector links and just sat at the links -- unless you looked for them and were sure they were there, yeah, I can understand not seeing them.

To the OP: really, go get a gear briefing. Even if you've had one, it'll sound entirely different now that you have some jumps. Things that made no sense before will make sense.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)