Differences In Jump Planes?

[mutumbo 0]

So, I recently signed up for a Critical Care Paramedic course, and started glancing through the book, well one chapter talks about the most popular fixed wing aircraft used in long distance medical transports, some of the more popular aircraft are the King Air and Cessna, depending on who/where/what they are doing at the time. So im trying to figure out why a PAC or a Twin Otter arent used as well. Basically im looking for some info on the number of jumpers (capacity), fuel consumption, and avg speeds of a King Air, Twin Otter, Cessna (not sure the exact model, just go with like the bigger version), and a PAC750?

Figured this would be the place to go, since all 4 planes are very common jump planes.
Or, if any of you guys/girls out there know a more direct answer, that works too,
Thanks.

Thanatos340(on landing rounds)--
Landing procedure: Hand all the way up, Feet and Knees Together and PLF soon as you get bitch slapped by a planet.

[PhreeZone 15]

PAC750 is too new and there are only a few dozen of them total in the world right now. They are an obscure plane in most places.

Twin Otters are used for rescue planes in multiple locations but you've started to hit on the reasons they are not super popular for transport. They are big and consume a lot of fuel. Look at the specs for the number of stretchers you can fit on a plane and the King Air is ideal for 1 passenger transports. Higher capacity is granted with an Otter but how many times will a company need to move 4 people at the same time?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[AndyMan 7]

Airplanes can be built for horizontal speed, or climbing rate - tough to do both.

Cessna Caravans were built for hauling freight for Fedex over long distance. You can see some of this by looking at the wing - a very narrow leading edge. Caravans fly relatively fast, can carry a relatively high load, but don't climb all that fast. Same thing with King Airs - if you're flying point-to-point, they're plenty fast, but don't climb all that much.

Twin Otters were build for taking off on short runways in the bush of northern Canada and Alaska. Big huge wings provide great lift but also tons of drag as speed increases. They climb like a homesick angel at low airspeeds, but as airpeed increases the drag off those wings have a bigger effect.

I don't have the numbers but it's easy to understand that a plane that's built for climbing is very different than one that's built for high speed point-to-point travel.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Ron 7]

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So im trying to figure out why a PAC or a Twin Otter arent used as well.

Speed and availability.

A KA will cruise about 235 kts.
An otter will cruise about 150 knots
A PAC about 169kts.

All use PT6A-6 engines so consumption is about the same for the twins and about half for the PAC.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[bwg 0]

Visit www.diverdriver.com, a website with some interesting info regarding various jump aircraft.

[mutumbo 0]

Oh, cool! Thanks guys, knew there'd be people here with a good amount of knowledge on the subject. Figured there was a logical reason, just didn't know what it was.


EDIT: Thanks for the site, it is pretty cool!

Thanatos340(on landing rounds)--
Landing procedure: Hand all the way up, Feet and Knees Together and PLF soon as you get bitch slapped by a planet.

[Ron 7]

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Airplanes can be built for horizontal speed, or climbing rate - tough to do both.

Not true. Speed is speed. An F16 can both climb like a bat out of hell AND scoot along.

A KA will beat an otter to altitude with monotonous regularity.

KA Rate of climb: 2,003 ft/min
Otter Rate of climb: 1,600 ft/min

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Cessna Caravans were built for hauling freight for Fedex over long distance

Two small corrections.

1. They were not built for FedEx, FedEx helped with the cargo conversion versions, "Cargomaster" and Super "Cargomaster". Just like FedEx helped with the cargo conversions of the Airbus A300 and A310. Until FedEx started buying them, Cessna's sales of the 208 were terrible.

FedEx is the primary user... (actually Mountain Air Cargo, although the planes are owned by FedEx and dry leased to MAC).

2. They are used for short distances. Normally less than 200 miles.

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* Sales of the initial Model 208 were modest at first, until Federal Express entered into discussions with Cessna to build a Caravan variant optimized for the parcel business. The result was the "Model 208A Cargomaster", which was a pure cargolifter, with the passenger windows and left rear door deleted, plus a large cargo pannier fitted to the belly. It also featured an increase in tail height by 15 centimeters (6 inches), longer engine exhausts to keep hot exhaust gases off the pannier, and Bendix-King avionics. FedEx ordered 177 Cargomasters and the Caravan series took off.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[riggerrob 561]

Let's talk about runway length.

Consider that most accident victims are transported by road to a small hospital, then flown to a larger hospital with more specialized surgical facilities.
So you are flying the patient from a small town or small city (with maybe a 3,000 foot runway) to a large city (with maybe a 6,000 foot runway), so the size of your airplane is determined by the size of your runway = 3,000 meaning a King Air or a straight-wing Cessna Citation jet.
And since you will only be transporting one or two patients at a time, a King 90 series is big enough.

Also remember that dozens of manufacturers have tried to build twin-turboprop airplanes, but more King Airs have been built than any other model, ergo, air ambulance companies can pick from a huge market. 1960s vintage King Airs can be picked up for the cost of the time remaining on the engines and the value of the instrument panel. Most sellers throw in the airframe for free.
Air ambulance companies usually buy better King Airs than skydivers, with things like pressure cabins that can still be pressurized, anti-ice systems that still work and more modern instrument panels.

It is also easier to hire pilots because every five-year commercial pilot has a King Air or Citation type-rating.

[skyh2omedic 0]

Good luck on your CCEMTP course-it's a good one. Good CEU's too. Be safe out there.

"You can't teach what you don't know and you can't lead where you won't go"

[davelepka 4]

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the most popular fixed wing aircraft used in long distance medical transports, some of the more popular aircraft are the King Air and Cessna, depending on who/where/what they are doing at the time. So im trying to figure out why a PAC or a Twin Otter arent used as well.

The idea is that you can build an airplane to go fast or slow, but not really both.

An airplane designed to go fast will have a thin airfoil and a short chord, which both lead to low drag and allow for high cruise speeds. The trade off for this is a higher stall speed, which equates to a higher speed at touchdown. If you need to maintain 90 or 100 knots on final, you need more runway to slow down once you get the wheels on the ground.

If you build a plane that can fly slow, with a low stall speed, you'll need a thicker airfoil and deeper chord. both of which will add drag and limit cruise speeds. The advantage is the low stall speed, and lower speed at touchdown, allowing you to use a shorter runway.

Of course, that knife cuts both ways, and the take off distances will be comparable to the landing distances. Longer for faster aircraft, shorter for slower aircraft.

Which aircaft to use for which mission is dependant on the range of the mission, the payload, and the runway length at the destination airport. For example, the Cleveland Clinic is about 3 miles from Burke Lakefront Airport, which has a 6000ft runway. Becasue of this, they frequesntly use a Beechjet 400 as an air ambulence because they have the runway to support it, and it gets people/organs where they need to be in a hurry.

Beyond that, the Otter and Pac are not 'mainstream' airplanes. You can find a King Air or Caravan pilot or parts within 200 miles of anywhere in the country.

The thing to remember about skydiving airplanes is that they are a unique, mission specific mix of qualities. being cheap is one of them, being tough and able to take 15/20 take offs/landings from grass strips per day is another. Being able to fly slow for jumprun, and get to get in and out of short fields is another.

The only other area of aviation that even comes close is crop dusting, but the load carrying capabilty is used for pesticide instead of jumpers. Even bush flying or cargo planes have an easier life with fewer take offs/landings, and much less climbing.

[turtlespeed 212]

F-14

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[davelepka 4]

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F-14

Good example. The swing-wing allows for increased performance both on the top end and bottom end of the airspeed indicator.

Of course, in the grand scheme of airplanes, the F-14 is still a 'fast' airplane with a stall speed better than 100 knots, even with the wings full forward.

[totter 2]

Dave;
Nice detailed description. You may want to re-think this last part though;

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Even bush flying or cargo planes have an easier life

There's a show on NGeo Channel called "Alaska Wing Men". You should give it a watch sometime.

[turtlespeed 212]

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F-14

Good example. The swing-wing allows for increased performance both on the top end and bottom end of the airspeed indicator.

Of course, in the grand scheme of airplanes, the F-14 is still a 'fast' airplane with a stall speed better than 100 knots, even with the wings full forward.

I guess it depends on where you put the line between slow and fast.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[davelepka 4]

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There's a show on NGeo Channel called "Alaska Wing Men". You should give it give it a watch sometime.

Yeah, some bush planes do take a beating in the line of duty. Maybe I should have included flight school 150/152s on that list. They live a rough life at the hands of low time student pilots, but that's a different type of abuse. Bush planes are flown by skilled pilots who do everything thay can to save the plane from the world around them, while school planes are flown by student pilots, who are only allowed to fly in a controlled environment to help save the planes from themselves.

[davelepka 4]

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I guess it depends on where you put the line between slow and fast

For my money it's in the neighborhood of 80 to 90 knots. Faster than that is getting up over 100mph at touchdown, and getting away from something you would want to put into a grass strip or a short field (for the most part). So if something is fast enough that you want a 'real' runway to land on, than to me that's a 'fast' airplane.

Of course, anything under that would be in the 'slow' catagory.

[turtlespeed 212]

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I guess it depends on where you put the line between slow and fast

For my money it's in the neighborhood of 80 to 90 knots. Faster than that is getting up over 100mph at touchdown, and getting away from something you would want to put into a grass strip or a short field (for the most part). So if something is fast enough that you want a 'real' runway to land on, than to me that's a 'fast' airplane.

Of course, anything under that would be in the 'slow' catagory.

Makes sense - i misread the title - I bet it would be hard to jump from a F-14 anyway. Expensive at the very least.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[mutumbo 0]

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Good luck on your CCEMTP course-it's a good one. Good CEU's too. Be safe out there.

thanks! its gonna be interesting at the least, heard its supposed to be one hell of a hard course.



anyway, thanks guys! learning alot about planes i didnt know, or sit down to figure out really.

Thanatos340(on landing rounds)--
Landing procedure: Hand all the way up, Feet and Knees Together and PLF soon as you get bitch slapped by a planet.

[Scrumpot 1]

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anyway, thanks guys! learning alot about planes i didnt know, or sit down to figure out really.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone