Both on Red or One on Each?

[ukJump 0]

I agree that you generally shouldn't change methods, but it makes sense to me to use 2 hands on red first if you have an rsl and a hand on each if you don't. Incidently I currently have an rsl and will still use one hand on each as I was taught.

[Andy_Copland 0]

I'd like to know the exact percentage of RSL's that have worked, i have been told to never rely on rsl

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[ukJump 0]

RSL's are a whole other issue. What I'm saying though is that if your rig has an rsl, it is important primarily to cut away cleanly and effectively before the rsl (or you) activates the reserve. Without an rsl it is important for you to find and pull the reserve handle (possibly while unstable), hence the advantage of your left hand already being there. Please note as I have not had any cutaways and only 150 jumps, this is just theoretical waffle.

[hookncrater 0]

Quote

I don't loosen the velcro. I just reset it.

Don't do that!

The last thing you want is for them to be loose(er), esp if you have a snag-tastic d-ring reserve handle. Having witnessed a headdown reserve deployment and the ensuing carnage (twice actually), I want that thing to be as snug as possible. Intentionally wearing out the velcro seems a little lame to me.

That aside, I vote for one hand on each handle, like the system was designed for and pillows on both sides since I freefly mostly (and I suck)

________________________________________________________________________________
when in doubt... hook it!

[Andy_Copland 0]

I should of done a poll, interesting to see how many people do both on cutaway or one in each

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[riggerrob 561]

Quote

I agree that you generally shouldn't change methods, but it makes sense to me to use 2 hands on red first if you have an rsl and a hand on each if you don't. Incidently I currently have an rsl and will still use one hand on each as I was taught.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The majority of my jumps are tandems, making reach across very difficult, so I am in the habit of putting one hand on each handle, peel, peel, pull pull.
That technique has helped me survive 14 tandem reserve rides.
I use the same technique on my solo gear.

[Andy_Copland 0]

I had a chat with my instructor today and he told me that obviously they have pro's and con's but a big factor is that if you cut away with two hands you risk going unstable for the reserve, i practiced both methods anyway and to be honest i like one on each, its kinda more semetrical

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[ripcord4 0]

Quote

I'd like to know the exact percentage of RSL's that have worked, i have been told to never rely on rsl

I do not know the persentage of RSL saves but I do know this: the RSL is meant as a backup to pulling the reserve ripcord. Just because it is probably faster than your manual pull does not make it the primary system. Depend on nothing but your wits and training.

[billbooth 10]

I agree, an RSL is ABSOLUTELY USELESS, when you do everything right...just like an AAD...or for that matter, a reserve. However, every year quite a few of us DON'T do everything right...and you can never tell which one of us is going to be next. It might be you, or it might be me. That's why we have reserves, AAD's, and RSL's, and that's why I use all three. I don't believe that even 35 years in the sport, and over 6,000 jumps, makes me immune to screwing up. In that 35 years, I have simply seen too many "best jumpers in the world" go in.

For decades it has been illegal to jump without a reserve. For many years now, AAD's have required on all student and tandem jumps. Right now, some DZ's won't let even experienced jumpers go without one. I believe, that in a few years, properly designed RSL's will be on that list of "must haves" in order to jump. Almost all of the "problems" attributed to RSL's have been on older, "incomplete" designs.

[EvilLurker 2]

I use both hands. I'm worried that if I don't, I won't get my cutaway or reserve handles out of the velcro (they're pretty tight, but maybe the adreniline rush would give me awesome strength). Also, that's the way I was trained and have practiced (pull to full arm extension and clear cable while watching the reserve handle).
I'm inclined to continue this, because in an emergency, you tend to revert back to what you were initially taught, and I don't want any delay fumbling around with a brain fart. I have an RSL, and most likely it's going to have a reserve out before I pull, but I'm going for silver without trying to verify that. Clearing the cables with a 2-handed pull gives me the best chance to have both risers released, in my opinion. I agree that under the best conditions (nothing is too tight/hangs up/goes wrong), the one-hand-on-each will be faster, but I pull at 3k or higher, just for that reason. I "trust" my RSL as much as my AAD, I don't want to have to count on either one of them to save my life. But they might.
Another thought is, if you have a broken/dislocated arm, you're already used to finding each handle with either hand. Food for thought.

[sundevil777 94]

Quote

I use both hands. I'm worried that if I don't, I won't get my cutaway or reserve handles out of the velcro (they're pretty tight, but maybe the adreniline rush would give me awesome strength).

No awesome strength needed, just get used to peeling it first. I think that using 2 hands, and especially 'clearing' the cables can use a lot of precious altitude. Also, I think using 2 hands will result in not pulling the cutaway handle as far.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[EvilLurker 2]

Quote

Also, I think using 2 hands will result in not pulling the cutaway handle as far.

I don't understand your reasoning behind that. I was trained to go "down and out" to full arm extension, then use one arm to "sweep" the free cable from the housing.

Quote

'clearing' the cables can use a lot of precious altitude.

Probably 300 feet if I'm cutting away from a high-speed mal. That's a reason a pull higher than 2500, I adapted my pull altitude to compensate for this factor. It beats finding out you can't manage it one-haded and having to use "Plan B". I've never had a cutaway yet, maybe I'll discover your technique is better after I've had a couple. I do find peeling the velcro, for me, goes a lot smoother with the 2-hand technique (on the ground). I use what I'm comfortable with and what I trained for. Figure that gives me the best odds of surviving.

[sundevil777 94]

Quote

Quote

Also, I think using 2 hands will result in not pulling the cutaway handle as far.

I don't understand your reasoning behind that. I was trained to go "down and out" to full arm extension, then use one arm to "sweep" the free cable from the housing.

Quote

'clearing' the cables can use a lot of precious altitude.

Probably 300 feet if I'm cutting away from a high-speed mal. That's a reason a pull higher than 2500, I adapted my pull altitude to compensate for this factor. It beats finding out you can't manage it one-haded and having to use "Plan B". I've never had a cutaway yet, maybe I'll discover your technique is better after I've had a couple. I do find peeling the velcro, for me, goes a lot smoother with the 2-hand technique (on the ground). I use what I'm comfortable with and what I trained for. Figure that gives me the best odds of surviving.

Your right hand can only go as far as your left arm will allow it, as long as you keep both hands on it. If you have to train your left hand to release part way through the process, it just seems more complicated. I guess if you pull out straight in front of your chest then there is no difference. I think the 2 handed, then sweep cables is advised for an SOS/single handled system.

People should actually practice PUNCHING the handle out HARD after peeling, then doing the same with the reserve (peel as appropriate of course). On my only cutaway with a pad, I punched it out so hard I could not detect any resistance. Taking care of a malfunction is no time to be dainty with the handle, and is more likely to result in only one side releasing.

Also, the altitude that is lost with the 2 handed method should not be dismissed because of the use of an RSL. I think the RSL shackle is not reliable enough, and high speed mals such as bag locks have been shown to result in the RSL not being able to activate the reserve.

Peeling the pad is very easy with one hand, and I think it make it much less likely that your hand will slip off the pad.

This subject is often repeated in the forums, but I think it is just a sign of how important it is.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Bandanarama 0]

One thing not mentioned that I experienced recently is the fact that your clothing or jumpsuit can obstruct the view of handles sometimes. Such an event can dictate which procedure must be used at a time of emergency. See http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1781102 for details.

Personally, I have a red pillow for my cutaway and a stainless steel d-handle for my reserve. I like having different types of handles to also help differentiate between their function. Food for thought and you will see various debates on this topic too...

Additionally, when you are done with your student progression or possibly during your solo jumps, you might consider some practice EPs while both free-falling and under canopy. Just make sure you have your hands clinched and go through the motions, taking care to not grab any handles. You may find a true preference during such exercises.

Last but not least, it never hurts to discuss these issues with your instructors or experienced mentors. Have fun practicing your EPs on the ground in the harness too!

Eric

___________________________________________________

One's destination is never a place, but rather a new way of looking at things. ~ Henry Miller

[Frenchy68 0]

Quote

That's a reason a pull higher than 2500, I adapted my pull altitude to compensate for this factor.

Certainly not meant to judge your EP, but as a side note: you can pull at 12k and still have to cutaway at 1k.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[EvilLurker 2]

Quote

you can pull at 12k and still have to cutaway at 1k.

I do it in case of a total, it gives me another 2 or 3 seconds to make up for the 2-on-each cutaway style. If I'm considering cutting away at 1k, I've really screwed the pooch. What am I cutting away from at that altitude? I don't quite get your meaning. ???

[Bandanarama 0]

I think Frenchy68 is just pointing out that things can head south very fast at times. He's probably just trying to open your eyes to other potential hazardous situations that do occur in our skydiving world.

Examples:

You could have a canopy wrap caused by someone colliding with your canopy or vice versa.

You could have suspension lines snap at lower altitudes.

You could have a canopy stall turn ugly.

You could have an unplanned two-out which turns ugly.

I suppose there are plenty of reasons why one could require a very low cutaway. It just helps to be prepared for anything.

Eric

___________________________________________________

One's destination is never a place, but rather a new way of looking at things. ~ Henry Miller

[nate_1979 9]

Quote

I believe, that in a few years, properly designed RSL's will be on that list of "must haves" in order to jump. Almost all of the "problems" attributed to RSL's have been on older, "incomplete" designs.

And almost all of our rigs are only compatible with those older, incomplete designs.... I see more of the "problem" RSLs around the DZ than I do anything else, by far. For most of us to jump a "properly designed" RSL we would have to change our entire container system, ... That would simply suck to get rid of my container that I love and have not outgrown just because I need (or someone else thinks I need) a RSL.. I hope to never see that, but I guess we'll see.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[Frenchy68 0]

Quote

Quote

you can pull at 12k and still have to cutaway at 1k.

I do it in case of a total, it gives me another 2 or 3 seconds to make up for the 2-on-each cutaway style. If I'm considering cutting away at 1k, I've really screwed the pooch. What am I cutting away from at that altitude? I don't quite get your meaning. ???

I think lots of things can happen between decision altitude and landing, that could warrant a cutaway (or a canopy transfer if too low). Damaged canopy (not always noticeable upon initial canopy check), another jumper tearing into your canopy, entanglement with another canopy, self induced mal, etc... Once again, I am not criticizing your EP at all, and understand your reasoning behind giving yourself the extra altitude in case of a total. I am just pointing out that lots of things can happen at lower altitudes.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[EvilLurker 2]

Oh, I'm well aware that things can happen between hard deck and landing. It's one of the reasons I'm using an RSL. (and around we go again)
Realistically, I might be able to peel and punch my cutaway faster 2 handed than I could one handed, and my RSL will have a reserve out quicker than I could have using a one-hand-on-each technique. In fact, I'm counting on it. Or I could die.

[goose491 0]

Quote

Realistically, I might be able to peel and punch my cutaway faster 2 handed than I could one handed, and my RSL will have a reserve out quicker than I could have using a one-hand-on-each technique. In fact, I'm counting on it. Or I could die.

Hmmm, think I might just use this in the RSL debate thread as showing how in some cases it's not altitude awarness that takes a backseat to gear dependancy.

Sometimes it's just altitude respect that is lost.

The RSL is not there for you to count on. Pull your own handles... on time... or you will die. That's the way to look at things. The RSL may beat you to the punch, deploying your reserve before you do but if you are in a situation where you do not have the time to deploy your own reserve and live you need to feel shame when you land.

Nick

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[EvilLurker 2]

I think you missed my point: If I cutting away that low, I'm out of time to begin with, and if I try a one-handed cutaway and fail, I'm dead. If I use a two-handed cutaway, I'll at least give my RSL a chance of getting a reserve out. I'll try and beat it, but it would be a close call either way. Get it?

[darrenspooner 0]

Ditto to everyone, I know bugger all. But I did have a cutaway at 122. I practiced a million times one hand on each handle. But when I had a mal both hands went to my cutaway without even thinking. I can't explain that, other than by saying it was a high speed spinning mal with a lot of G and somehow I felt I needed both hands to zoom in on red, and it went against everything I'd been trained to do.

[Andy_Copland 0]

The G force issue scares the shit out of me. Is it that bad that sometimes you really have split seconds to get away from the main before pass out?

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[wmw999 2,166]

Quote

The G force issue scares the shit out of me. Is it that bad that sometimes you really have split seconds to get away from the main before pass out?

Not in the very vast majority of cases, and certainly not for a canopy you're likely to be jumping in the near future. The main reasons to act quickly are because a turning canopy is probably losing altitude quickly, and because it's easy to mis-estimate time while your mind is racing.

Yes, if it's spinning fast enough it can red you out. But those are massively high-performance canopies on really bad-day scenarios. If you perform your emergency procedures calmly and deliberately, you'll get them right the first time.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)