1st Jump, Minor Malfunction

[LDiCosimo 0]

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My biggest concern, is that it would make flaring more complicated. I can imagine a flare ending up being a braked turn into the ground. I am still trying to perfect not popping up on landing

When I was taught this they also said to keep the same compensation in the brakes all the way through the flare i.e. if you are holding the right toggle down 6 inches to maintain straight level flight then you must keep the right toggle 6 inches lower through the flare to continue keeping the wing level

[dragon2 0]

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My biggest concern, is that it would make flaring more complicated. I can imagine a flare ending up being a braked turn into the ground. I am still trying to perfect not popping up on landing

When I was taught this they also said to keep the same compensation in the brakes all the way through the flare i.e. if you are holding the right toggle down 6 inches to maintain straight level flight then you must keep the right toggle 6 inches lower through the flare to continue keeping the wing level

Correct, which can be tough to do...

I had 300-ish jumps at the time, and was jumping a 128sqft reserve @ 1.2 WL.

I broke my nose landing on it, when I had to land my reserve with closed endcells that required about 3/4 input on my right brake to fly straight.
I hooked myself into the ground to the left

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[popsjumper 2]

Ouch!
Having a bad day, were you?
Appease the Canopy Gods by burning the reserve on an altar.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[skybytch 259]

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My opinion is that some guideline such as shoulder level or whatever is reasonable because canopies can have a slight turn. Either you have some guideline about what is too much of a slight turn, or you need some guideline about what it OK to keep it flying straight. Without either of these, one might have students cutting away when it is obviously not needed.

Bingo.

I first heard "no more than shoulder level input" in my FJC. I've heard many other instructors give the same instruction.

Flaring from this configuration is not difficult, and if the jumper has any worries about how to flare it after doing a control check they can chop it.

I always drilled them on it in the harness too. "You're in a slow turn to the right. what do you do?" The correct response is to give some left input until it flies straight; if input is shoulder level or above a control check is next, if input is more than shoulder level a cutaway and reserve deployment are next. I'd drill them on both situations.

[popsjumper 2]

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I always drilled them on it in the harness too. "You're in a slow turn to the right. what do you do?" The correct response is to give some left input until it flies straight; if input is shoulder level or above a control check is next, if input is more than shoulder level a cutaway and reserve deployment are next. I'd drill them on both situations.

Hmmmm...food for thought.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[alp27 0]

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OK, folks, I (reluctantly) agree. No one likes to admit they f*cked up. Here I am admitting it:

Sarge...you are the man! Keep that attitude throughout your skydiving career and you'll be a much better and safer skydiver.

Tip o' the Hat.

This ... :D the only people that dont make mistakes are the people that do nothing. glad your ok Sarge

Everyone dies.... not everyone lives!!

[tmccann 1]

Fellow student question - there has been a lot of discussion about the amount of correction input on a landable canopy. In this case, shouldn't the canopy's inability to execute a proper flare have given him his answer?

I really hope the OP learns from all the good folks here giving advice, and most importantly, his own instructors. Please don't shy away from returning and getting an earful from your S&TA. In particular, don't be afraid of a more drilling in the classroom and harness until those EPs are completely ingrained. From my own very brief experience in the sport, one of my instructors noticed that my reaction to a line-over in EP drills was always to try to work it out with riser/brake input, so he took the time to show me the spin that was likely to happen if I did that on a line-over a few cells in. He drilled that into me, so when I did get a line-over on lucky jump 13, I chopped immediately before trying to clear it, and only got a couple line twists in my reserve, instead of a real rough ride. Thanks, Greg.

[nigel99 144]

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My opinion is that some guideline such as shoulder level or whatever is reasonable because canopies can have a slight turn. Either you have some guideline about what is too much of a slight turn, or you need some guideline about what it OK to keep it flying straight. Without either of these, one might have students cutting away when it is obviously not needed.

Bingo.

I first heard "no more than shoulder level input" in my FJC. I've heard many other instructors give the same instruction.

Flaring from this configuration is not difficult, and if the jumper has any worries about how to flare it after doing a control check they can chop it.

I always drilled them on it in the harness too. "You're in a slow turn to the right. what do you do?" The correct response is to give some left input until it flies straight; if input is shoulder level or above a control check is next, if input is more than shoulder level a cutaway and reserve deployment are next. I'd drill them on both situations.

I appreciate you outlining the logic. I guess with some practice flares, you could get your head around it prior to being committed to landing.

I do think you are giving us newbies more credit than we deserve though on our ability to flare correctly - when you say flaring it is not difficult

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[slappy1 0]

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Sgt.Sausage

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OK, folks, I (reluctantly) agree. No one likes to admit they f*cked up. Here I am admitting it:

Yea you fucked up. And you got busted claiming to know more than the staff.

Sparky

BOOMSHAKALAKA


p.s. I happen to know the instructors involved in your skydive and I first want to say that I feel blessed every time I get a chance to jump with or learn from either of them - they are both insanely intelligent, experienced skydivers and it speaks volumes of your own intelligence and experience to insult theirs. additionally, not only did the female instructor on radio not tell you to do a practice flare at 400 feet, she also did not yell "FLAREFLAREFLARE". she's a pretty even-keeled gal and doesn't do much yelling in general, much less into a walkie.

in the future, it would probably behoove you to show your instructors (and those from whom you have much to learn) a little more respect than you did in your original post. perhaps you thought this was an anonymous board where you could get away with that and come out looking like the guy who really DID know it all, but unfortunately this is a very, very small world and that's not how this works.

all this said, I would gladly partake in the case of beer you'll be bringing to the dz the next time you come out to make a jump. I'm kinda on a stella kick, if that helps.

[Sgt.Sausage 0]

Let me start this out by saying: I have already admitted, publicly, loudly, and openly, the screw up here was my fault. I'm saying it again, right here, right now.

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A couple of things-you most certainly were taught that 2500' is your decision height for a good canopy. I know you heard it because I reviewed it in the AFF portion of class (after you were taught it in the basic skydiving class earlier in the day).

Agreed. As was already acknowledged elsewhere in this thread and again here.

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Regardless, it is YOUR responsibility to decide if you have a good canopy and whether it is safe to land.

Agreed. As already acknowledged elsewhere in this thread and again here.

I don't think I ever had a problem with who's decision it was. I made the (bad) decision.
I take full responsibility for that decision. I made a bad decision.

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I take huge exception to the statement that the Instructor on the radio didn't know what she was doing.

Public apology, to both you and your instructor. It is I, me alone, who did not know what he was doing.
But more on that in a bit ...

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I'm done with folks slamming me for my mistake. Keep calling me out. It will be ignored. I've admitted the mistake. Multiple times. I'm giving you your due here both in re-affirming my mistake, and publicly declaring your staff was not at fault.

BTW - I tried to keep this anonymous. I wasn't out to give you or your staff or your outfit a bad reputation. As far as I'm aware, I didn't name names or try to connect it to you in any way.
My intent was not to insult your staff, but to figure out what happened. Since you came out of anonymization and put it on record, so will I:


Jason Paul (no license)
Student in need of remedial training.
Owing one (or more) cases of beer to the staff.


**



Now can we have some meaningful learning from this, please. I've seen a few folks chime in on that it appeared to be a tension knot and what causes tension knots. It seems you concur with that assessment:

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Since I saw your descent, I will tell you what you had. You had a tension knot. When I saw you go toward the landing area, I said "why is that student flying a canopy with a tension knot?"

Since other folks here were just looking at the pics, and you were actually there and said you saw it, I'm gonna take that one as officially answered.

OK, so here's my primary concerns:

(1) I'm on my first jump. I don't understand the issue, or even recognize the seriousness of the problem (again - my issue, my fault - no deficiencies in training, just a deficiency in this particular student's neurons). You saw the jump and saw the problem right away. Admittedly, I've been unjustly harsh on your staff manning the radio - but this is an honest question: If you saw it and recognized it immediately, why didn't your staff on the radio see it and somehow acknowledge it? She was (a) much closer than wherever you were watching from and (b) charged with guiding me in. Nothing was said on the radio. Nothing was said on the ground after the jump. Nothing was said on the ride back.I'm not trying to be harsh. Not trying to point the finger. No judgement implied with this question. Just asking this question, and the obvious followup question: What are approved procedures for your staff on the ground, assuming said bone-headed student disregarded training and was coming in with a problem? The fact that I turned to an online forum before anyone even told me what the problem was ... that doesn't bother you in the least that maybe there's a slight gap in procedure there? It was acknowledged on the log for the jump by the instructors as a "...built in right hand turn", but no explanation was offered. I'm taking my well deserved public flogging now, but I think I would have preferred to have gotten beaten up on the spot. I will willingly submit to a public flogging and any remedial training you feel necessary when we show up for Jump #2.

(2) Further question/concern: If you witnessed the issue first hand, and were wondering to yourself " ... why in the heck ... what the ..???" when you saw me coming in, and I was a student in your classroom, did you feel any need to discuss with me or attempt to correct the problem situation of _MY_ bad judgement. I hung around the DZ for at least 3 more hours watching other folks jump and waiting on a buddy to complete his. No one said a word. Not you. Not the two instructors who made the jump. Not your nice young lady on the radio.

(3) Final question: Does it bother you at all that I was given a pass on this and an AOK stamp to move on to Jump #2?

I don't know if it's possible to go back and retroactively fail someone on a jump, but on this one, I really wouln't mind if you did. In fact, I am formally requesting it here.

I've admitted my mistakes. Both in procedure at jump time and in etiquette after the fact when publicly discussing the jump. Can you address my issues concerns as outlined above?

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BTW - Someone mentioned a case of beer. Which do you prefer and how many cases should I bring?

[Sgt.Sausage 0]

==> . perhaps you thought this was an anonymous board

Thats the fact, Jack!

I had no intention of tying this to any named individuals, organizations/outfits/ etc.

Bad assumption on my part.


==> looking like the guy who really DID know it all,


I came here asking a question for something I most certainly did NOT know.

Yes, it should have been handled differently in the way I posted it.

I was in need of an attitude adjustment, have received sufficient motivation to make said adjustment. Consider it made.



BTW - I'm not a beer drinker. Where does one find Stella in the area. Assuming they don't stock it in the local Qwikimart.

[gabrigger 0]

Jason,

First of all, I hope you enjoyed your jump (even the rough landing). I saw your tension knot as I was walking to the airplane from the south landing area. You were headed toward the north landing area. I saw it as you were directly overhead. When I saw it, it was definitely too low to cut away, so landing it was the safest option. I spoke to the radio instructor about this. She said that when she realized what you had, you were too low to cut away and use the reserve, so she elected to guide you in to a safe landing under your main.

As far as the remedial instruction, I have spoken to all the instructors about this incident and am satisfied with their competency and knowledge.

I wasn't able to come talk to you because I was swamped on that day and because you had instructors working with you. As I said, all I saw was your descent when you were overhead (and it was just luck that I happened to look up and see you). I verified that you landed safely before my load took off from the ground, so I was satisfied with safe completion of your jump. I don't remember seeing you in the hangar and probably wouldn't have felt the need to say anything to you, unless prompted, since I wasn't one of the Instructors working with you that day, and didn't know what they had talked with you about. If you didn't get an answer, or were not satisfied with the answer you got, you should have asked me. If you had asked me, I would have made sure I got you an answer. I can't read your mind to know what your questions are or what you're thinking.

What do you mean by given a pass? If the aerial portion of the jump went well, why wouldn't you be passed to the next level? Canopy control is a continual learning process throughout your skydiving career. You made a mistake and learned from it, so build on the knowledge and be safer next time.

Another mistake is going to these online forums for answers, when a simple question or phone call could have resolved all of this without the public flogging. These forums can be a feeding frenzy at times (as I'm sure you experienced).

Make sure you look me up when you come back for your second jump and I will answer any questions you have and will explain tension knots to you, if you would like. If I'm busy and can't talk to you, you can get my cell number from manifest to call me at a later time.

Blue Skies

P.S. I'm a Killian's fan

Greg Bailey D-19203
S/L I/E, IAD I/E, AFF I/E, TDM I/E, Coach E
Master Rigger
S&TA Skydive Warren County

[jrjny 0]

Dude - don't be so subservient to these assholes. You landed and walked away good job. Sounds like the AFF-I didn't pay attention and the rigger was embarrassed of his packing operation.

Go to a different dropzone and if you don't drink don't buy anyone beer.

Newbs aren't dying it's all the pros who are taking your money and yelling at you. Think for yourself.

My gf did her AFF jump at one of the oldest dropzones around and the DZO told her to turn the wrong direction on final because he was looking at someone else and talking to her. PEOPLE FUCK UP! Do what you want to do.

best,

Jeff

[slappy1 0]

maybe you two can get together and rub your "tension knots" together.

[mjosparky 3]

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Dude - don't be so subservient to these assholes. You landed and walked away good job. Sounds like the AFF-I didn't pay attention and the rigger was embarrassed of his packing operation.

Go to a different dropzone and if you don't drink don't buy anyone beer.

Newbs aren't dying it's all the pros who are taking your money and yelling at you. Think for yourself.

My gf did her AFF jump at one of the oldest dropzones around and the DZO told her to turn the wrong direction on final because he was looking at someone else and talking to her. PEOPLE FUCK UP! Do what you want to do.

best,

Jeff

Sgt. now this guy is the one you want to listen to. He has an answer for most of the world’s problems. I bet he knows enough in 2 years to rewrite the SIM. It’s just a shame that the AFF-I and rigger you dealt with failed to learn the things jrjuy has by “thinking for himself”.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[jrjny 0]

blah blah blah - i do think for myself and I know that many people in this sport are idiots and give crap advice.

I gave no specific advice - just made a general statement which led you to attack my character based upon my 'lack of experience' while I simply noted that new jumpers are not dying...just you up jumpers.

be safe up there,

Jeff

[mjosparky 3]

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blah blah blah - i do think for myself and I know that many people in this sport are idiots and give crap advice.

I gave no specific advice - just made a general statement which led you to attack my character based upon my 'lack of experience' while I simply noted that new jumpers are not dying...just you up jumpers.

be safe up there,

Jeff

"You keep think Butch, that's what you are good at."

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Muffie 0]

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... I simply noted that new jumpers are not dying...just you up jumpers.

Incorrect. This year at least five jumpers have died that had under 25 jumps. One of those was a malfunction that cutaway too low to survive.

To the OP:
If you do some searches on here you'll find some good discussion about what should or shouldn't be said to a jumper who is on radio. There are some serious concerns about telling a jumper under radio to cutaway a malfunction. If there's more than one jumper on radio it can be heard by the wrong jumper. Or it can lead to a jumper hearing and reacting too low. That's why you get trained on EPs. It's ultimately your call. If you can't turn right, turn left, flare. Chop. Basically, that's on you.

And the issue that happened with you was handling a malfunction not failing to complete the requirements of the AFF jump. I know people who didn't have a mal until a couple hundred jumps, so no point in failing you on something that is always possible but not an expected part of your AFF training.

Good luck on your next jump!

[mjosparky 3]

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but not an expected part of your AFF training.

But handling a malfunction or any emergency situation is part of AFF training. Maybe the most important part.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Muffie 0]

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but not an expected part of your AFF training.

But handling a malfunction or any emergency situation is part of AFF training. Maybe the most important part.

Sparky

True. What I meant by that was that they don't expect you to have and handle a malfunction during AFF, so it's not part of the checklist of items that you have to complete to pass a specific level.

[Olmed 0]

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... I simply noted that new jumpers are not dying...just you up jumpers.

Incorrect. This year at least five jumpers have died that had under 25 jumps. One of those was a malfunction that cutaway too low to survive.

To the OP:
If you do some searches on here you'll find some good discussion about what should or shouldn't be said to a jumper who is on radio. There are some serious concerns about telling a jumper under radio to cutaway a malfunction. If there's more than one jumper on radio it can be heard by the wrong jumper. Or it can lead to a jumper hearing and reacting too low. That's why you get trained on EPs. It's ultimately your call. If you can't turn right, turn left, flare. Chop. Basically, that's on you.

And the issue that happened with you was handling a malfunction not failing to complete the requirements of the AFF jump. I know people who didn't have a mal until a couple hundred jumps, so no point in failing you on something that is always possible but not an expected part of your AFF training.

Good luck on your next jump!

I would not appreciate an instructor telling me on the radio to cut away. It would worsen the whole situation. The skills to decide if you fly under a good canopy should be present BEFORE you jump. It would not be nice to hear a half tense voice on the radio yelling "CUT AWAY-CUT AWAY"...

I think you should be prepared to cut away on every jump and trust that you reserve will take you down safely if the situation demands it.

Well, big words from someone waiting for his AFF to start in a couple of weeks..

[popsjumper 2]

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but not an expected part of your AFF training.

But handling a malfunction or any emergency situation is part of AFF training. Maybe the most important part.

Sparky

True. What I meant by that was that they don't expect you to have and handle a malfunction during AFF, so it's not part of the checklist of items that you have to complete to pass a specific level.

Put me solidly in the boat with Sparky. I'll be more concise: EPs ARE the most important part of any type of skydive training. How to handle problems is paramount. Everything else is aimed at preventing problems.

Two top priorities:
1) PULL!
2) HANDLE EPs!

To speak to your statement, Muffie, I want to say that it's very, very and I mean VERY disappointing to see AFFIs concentrating solely on air skills and totally ignoring everything else.

IMO, EVERY jump prep should include EP quiz and reviews.
A simple oral quiz on specific problems and how to handle them (and a solid re-teach if necessary) is not out of the question on any training jump.

If I do an AFF jump, you can bet your sweet butt that I'm asking you how to handle it if XXX and/or YYY and/or ZZZ happens.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[nigel99 144]

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And the issue that happened with you was handling a malfunction not failing to complete the requirements of the AFF jump. I know people who didn't have a mal until a couple hundred jumps, so no point in failing you on something that is always possible but not an expected part of your AFF training.

I think I understand what you are saying, but it is ambiguous and could be interpreted in a very dangerous manner.

Every single person who jumps should anticipate a malfunction on EVERY jump.

As far as failing an AFF level, for not handling a malfunction in an appropriate manner, I strongly disagree with you. Frankly if someone proves that they have behaved in an unsafe manner (or has simply shown that they have failed to grasp a concept previously taught) it is in THEIR benefit to be told to do back n levels, or even to sit through the FJC classroom again. Better to be safe than dead. I am not an AFF-I but it is the way that I would want to be treated.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[mjosparky 3]

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To speak to your statement, Muffie, I want to say that it's very, very and I mean VERY disappointing to see AFFIs concentrating solely on air skills and totally ignoring everything else.

This is a quote from one of the guys that started the RW movement.

Sparky

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“1 - We are now teaching people how to do Freefall before they know how to make a Parachute Jump.” Skratch Garrison 1998

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Muffie 0]

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EPs ARE the most important part of any type of skydive training. How to handle problems is paramount. Everything else is aimed at preventing problems.

Two top priorities:
1) PULL!
2) HANDLE EPs!

To speak to your statement, Muffie, I want to say that it's very, very and I mean VERY disappointing to see AFFIs concentrating solely on air skills and totally ignoring everything else.

Sorry if what I said has been misconstrued.

I completely agree with both you and Sparky that EPs are an essential part of training. And before the OP gets sent back up I would expect that he would have a thorough brief on EPs once more, be thrown in the harness and drilled on his EPs until he couldn't see straight, etc., etc. But he was complaining that they passed him on his jump and he wanted to be failed. If the criteria for passing that first jump was to be altitude aware, do practice touches, pull for himself, etc. then failing him on the level and making him do that again when that's not his issue wouldn't resolve the problem.

My AFF training definitely covered EPs in detail and I was expected to see a malfunction, know it was a malfunction, and act accordingly. I assume the same is true for the OP's training as well. I didn't have a malfunction during AFF and haven't yet and I don't think most do on AFF (at least not where I jump), so there's no good way to test someone's ability to handle a malfunction until they have one. And failing this guy on his first level and making him do the same steps again isn't going to test that. I was reacting to his statement that he wanted to be failed retroactively which to me was a further questioning of his instructors' ability and judgment.