Dying under a good canopy.

[Douggarr 6]

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Speaking as someone who has been in the sport since before the high performance landing, the answer is a very emphatic yes.

In the 1970's, fatalities with an open canopy usually were because of drowning or electrocution, with the occasional "bad landing". And it was in the 0-2/year level, back when there were more fatalities.

Open-canopy fatalities now are either due to swoops gone wrong at the ground (person prangs themselves; sad, but hopefully they understand the consequences), and collisions between open canopies. There are a number of reasons for collisions between open canopies, including high-performance landings that cause loss of view of where you're going, people just not paying attention, and probably target fixation as well. Not to mention the occasional drowning, electrocution, or bad landing.

Wendy P.

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SCR-442, SCS-202, CCR-870, SOS-1353

• Quote

[Douggarr 6]

i screwed up the reply...

What I wanted to say is that Wendy P. has nailed it precisely. I started way back in the Cessna days when it was easy to keep track of four or five canopies that were round. Now you have single pass Otters with all sorts of disciplines, all sorts of wing loads, all sorts of break off altitudes, and all sorts of opening altitudes. Chaos? You bet. There is no way to avoid it except to keep your head on the proverbial swivel, learn how to track, and not care about landing where you're going to have a long walk back to the packing area.

This risk can be lowered by better canopy training, and multiple passes (not likely because DZ owners are cranking expensive tach time aircraft), and more segregated landing areas.

At the recent SOS big-way in Elsinore, I felt more comfortable with 60 guys in the air who 1) knew the break off altitude and were precise about it 2) tracked like their life depended on it (which it did, sort of), and 3) landed in three distinct parts of the drop zone.

In fact, I felt safer than when I'm in an Otter with 16 other folks who begin a conversation with "What are you opening at?" "How many seconds should I give you before I exit?" Uh oh.

SCR-442, SCS-202, CCR-870, SOS-1353

[DocPop 1]

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And that can only be chalked up to luck because at 50 jumps a year you have not developed the skills to safely a 135 Katana.

In the spirit of learning I will respond to this. What skills do I not have? And I want specific answers, not "you don't have the jump numbers" or "you don't know what you don't know". I want you to name the canopy control skills that I don't have. That will be very useful in terms of what I focus on in my continued learning.

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You say you are being “mentored” by some very good people. Name one, just one experienced HP canopy pilot or canopy coach that endorses you flying that canopy.

I am not going to drag other people's names onto dz.com so they can be flamed. Several of them have said that this site is worthless for anything other than gear sales.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[ridestrong 1]

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I dont' think education is the problem. There are more canopy courses and information out there now then there was 15 years ago when I started. People just don't apply what they learn. They think their way is the better way and don't care what someone with 2000+ and 10+ years in the sport has to say.

The problem is, like POP touched on, the entitlement generation. They think its just fine to downsize and fly like idiots cause they paid for the jump just like you did. The don't care if they fly their own special pattern and screw over others trying to land safely or spiral down over the top of the LZ or many of the other stupid things the entitlement generation feels they are entitled to do.

j

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I think you're getting your demographics wrong.

It is the higher jump number pilots that are involved in a lot of these incidents.

However, I do agree with the statement that education alone is not the answer - it must be coupled with enforcement.

Agreed... that rant was misdirected and frankly BS when it comes to the topic in discussion.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[jonstark 8]

I used to have a strategy to avoid conflict that no longer seems to work. I used to pull at 2K or below on the first pass and get to the ground early enough. I should have known something was different when I noticed the looks of horror when asked where I would be pulling because now I can pull at 2K on the first pass and the last out with his flying hanky will be diving through the pattern when I am on final or making that last 90 degree turn to final.

I got dusted by a guy in Deland (I was the old guy in the Piggly Wiggly parking lot with my seat belt hanging out the door and turn signal still going when he came racing through in his formula race car). We had words but I couldn't get him to see the chip on his shoulder. He's dead now after landing out and not surviving a landing he couldn't swoop.

Wisdom is learning from another person's mistakes. Wise Up People!

jon

[ufk22 33]

Deaths due to low pulls are always going to be a part of skydiving. That's the nature of the discipline. Just as deaths will always be present in other skydiving disciplines - including deaths under good canopies.

Just because you don't accept the risk does not mean that low-pullers should be ostracized unless they are killing others. I get a sub-text from you of "it wasn't like this in my day so it must be wrong". The fatalities per thousand jumpers have come down drastically since "your day".

By all means find we should find ways to reduce deaths, but let's do it in a way that lets the sport exist.

The argument of "it's killing too many people - we should ban it" is not going to get you very far. How many is too many? Do you want zero deaths? In that case skydiving itself needs to be banned.

I've said it before - we need solutions that are achievable and realistic. Many of them have been brought up and yet you continue to beat this extremist drum if banning low pulls.

Let's work together on this. The last thing we need is to set factions of our small community against each other.
It's 1972 all over again.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[mjosparky 4]

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And I want specific answers,

How does it feel want?

I don’t believe it is in the “spirit of learning” but an effort to continue your defend of an indefensible position.

I don’t expect a truthful answer but hopefully it will give something to think about.

1. Have you practiced and can you repeatedly do a 90 degree flat turn at 50 feet?

2. Can you to a 45 degree heading change while in you flare?

3. Can you consistently land in a 10 meter circle to a stop and on your feet?

4. Do you know the difference between static, dynamic and accelerated stalls?

5. Do you know at what speed you canopy will stall?

And that is just a partial list of things you should know and be able to do in you sleep.

Here is a quote by Brian Germain.

“Without physical rehearsal for physical activities, our cognitive understanding is useless. We have to over and over…….” Brian Germain

---

Posted some years ago.

"Dave Wilds, Tom Piras, Roger Nelson…. They were true Skygods, World Champions – Icons of the sport."

They had natural talent, had developed incredible skills and were hugely current.

... And yet the ground offered them no concession for their level of skill or experience.

Knowing that your experience and skill will probably never approach their level, try not to be so arrogant as to think for a moment you will be afforded any more consideration”

---

50 jumps a year is not enough to stay current enough to fly your canopy even if you did have more jumps. Like was posted earlier, you are the poster boy for how not to downsize.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mirage62 0]

+1 he may be a troll

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[ElectricFetus 0]

something of a bad analogy, but i know where you're coming from.

as a certified diver i can say with certainty that 'scuba swimming' IS different than 'regular swimming'. 'regular' you use your arms much more for propulsion, and in scuba, you use primarily your legs. arms in scuba are used for signaling, attitude correction and 'device' holding, etc.

in theory you COULD learn to scuba withOUT learning to surface swim, but really it would be a bad idea.

[davelepka 4]

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50 jumps a year is not enough to stay current enough to fly your canopy even if you did have more jumps. Like was posted earlier, you are the poster boy for how not to downsize

He's the poster boy for the whole problem. It's like this -

We know that flying a parachute has become the most dangerous part of skydiving, be it through a single jumper HP or non-HP incident, or a collision, again, HP or non-HP.

DocPop is pushing every limit he can in the area of canopy flight, those being both WL and canopy type. His canopy selection is not even close to what the manufacturer or most jumpers would consider appropriate, he has been told this numerous times, he has acknowledged it numerous times, yet he continues to jump the canopy. Forget the manufacturer, forget the advice of knowledgable jumpers, forget the overwhelming statistics of the last 10 years, he's going to do what he wants to do.

That's the problem. People do whatever the fuck they want, and this is what we get. These parachutes aren't aerodynamic decellerators, they're not toys, they're capable flying machines that require training, practice and skill to operate safely. Unlike virtually every other high performance craft out there, all parachtues pretty much cost the same. If you can afford any canopy, you can afford a high performance canopy.

I don't care what manuvers a guy has done, what training he's gone through, if you're going to jump a Katana, you should have at least 500 jumps and making at least 20 or 30 jumps per month. That's what the canopy was made for, and anything less than that is just giving skydiving the middle finger, and just doing whatever you want.

Forget the hazzards to yourself, like the risk of immenent bodily harm, forget the risks to others ranging from killing someone due to a collision, or damaging the livelyhood of local DZOs and DZ employees. Forget the harm that ANOTHER canopy related death would do to the sport (or what the FAA would do to the sport in that case). Forget all that, he's got it all figured out, and is going to do whatever he wants.

Then he has the nerve to try and defend his actions.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

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In the spirit of learning I will respond to this. What skills do I not have? And I want specific answers, not "you don't have the jump numbers" or "you don't know what you don't know". I want you to name the canopy control skills that I don't have. That will be very useful in terms of what I focus on in my continued learning.

I think I have the answer to your questions...
1. You do NOT have the jump numbers!
2. You do NOT know what you don’t know!

I know that's not what you want to hear. But here’s something else you don’t want to hear. You don't have any respect for people who are trying to explain this to you. That's what troubles me the most.

After reading a few of your posts, I looked at your jump #’s and canopy choice. Wow! There are people, way more qualified than me, trying to tell you you’re in over your head. And you’re not hearing them. You said you were waiting for someone to call you out on your flying… Put my name on the growing list of people who have called you out.

My reason for calling you out… your irresponsible choice of canopies and your complete disregard for the people who are willing to say something about it here on this forum. Please do NOT take this as a personal attack towards you or your ability. Instead, maybe consider it as advice worth exploring. Advice given in the spirit of learning. As always… IMHO

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[grimmie 179]

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We are being distracted from the real issue here, which is not canopy collisions at opening altitudes but CCs in the pattern. If there really is a big WL difference and they are opening at around the same altitude then there is plenty of time to CREATE separation before landing IF people think about it.

i.e hotshots get down first and leave the old farts to land later while grumbling how things were not like this in their day.

This post shows your lack of knowledge and lack of regard for people trying to educate and help you.

Sometimes with different groups and different wing loadings, there is a lot of traffic created by the groups trying to get to the same LZ in a lot of congested traffic.

Back in the day when old farts used to speak, we young uns used to listen. A LOT. I had this very conversation with Bill Jones the other day at SOS. If YOU saw Bill on a DZ, you would wonder what an old fart Colonel Sanders look alike guy was doing limping around the DZ. If he offered you some guidance, I would hope you would accept it.

The problem with the young hotshots is that they don't want to listen. I have many cocky, atheletic dead friends that had canopies bite them. They were warned by old farts.

You see, the thing about being an old fart in skydiving is that we have made it through some stuff. A lot of stuff. Hell, Sparky has landed all types of canopies in a lot of small areas around the world. He has more time in the DZ shithouse than you will ever get in freefall.

The reason a lot of posters in here are passsionate about this issue, and our sport and guys like you is because we have seen what happens. I'm tired of watching friends breath their last gasp of air while I'm trying to help them. That's why we are concerned.

Some old farts might get their rocks off by posting, "You're gonna die, punk" here on Dorkzone, but hey, remember, these guys jumped rounds and belly mounts and are a bunch of twisted dudes. Most of them have seen more friends die than you have jumps. Yeah, things aren't like the way they were back in their day.

Myself, I want to help with my ideas and listen to others ideas. Maybe that next canopy collision we can prevent will be mine, or yours.

Step back and relax. Fly that 135 with care. Learn it and enjoy it. Be careful.

And just for the record, this 50 year old fart is usually down first on his Katana 120 loaded at 1.8.

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

something of a bad analogy, but i know where you're coming from.

as a certified diver i can say with certainty that 'scuba swimming' IS different than 'regular swimming'. 'regular' you use your arms much more for propulsion, and in scuba, you use primarily your legs. arms in scuba are used for signaling, attitude correction and 'device' holding, etc.

in theory you COULD learn to scuba withOUT learning to surface swim, but really it would be a bad idea.

Not my words, but those of Skratch Garrison. First jump in 1962, one of the original Arvin good guys.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[davelepka 4]

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Step back and relax. Fly that 135 with care. Learn it and enjoy it. Be careful.

Don't tell him that. That's part of the problem.

We know that statisticly you're most likely to die under an open parachute. We also know that those deaths are spread around pretty evenly between solos and collisions, and HP and non-HP, so there is no one 'magic bullet' we can look to in solving the problem. Anyone not 'toe-ing the line' in terms of canopy control is part of the problem, regardless of who they are or what they fly.

The guy you responded to is flying a HP canopy at 1.5 WL with 250 jumps. Don't tell him to fly with care, because that implies consent. Tell him to stop being an asshole, stop adding to the problem, and get back in the middle of the bell curve and fly something even remotely appropriate to his experience.

Don't suffer the fools lightly. That's how we got here, and continuing to do so is how were going to be stuck here. This is the land of the free, and we tried to be free and easy with this canopy business, but it didn't work out.

We gave it a fair shot. Over the last 20 years, the first 10 could have been looked at as an 'adjustment period'. New canopies, new technologies, let's see if everyone can just figure it out on their own. The old guys need to figure how to transition from F-111, and 'the establishment' needs to figure how to teach the new guys coming into the sport how to deal with these new canopies.

So that's the first 10 years. The last 10 years hasn't been any better, and now it's time to give up on the idea of 'natural selection', and stop being so 'free'. For years, virtually every other country on earth has had strict on-going educational requirements in place, and even stricter limitation on what sizes and types of canopies any one person can jump. Now it's time that we got on board and did the same.

Of course this means that for the most part were in the hands of the 'powers the be' waiting for them to get their shit together and get some structure up in this bitch. God only knows how long that's going to take.

Which brings me to my original point, what we can do on the grassroots level is not telling guys like DocPop to be safe and have a blast. Tell him he's an asshole, and he's most of what's wrong with skydiving. He knows what he's doing is far outside 'the norm', what's his next move outside 'the norm' that he will deciede is OK, and just do it anyway? I don't want to find out, so I'm not going to encourage that type of behavior. Neither should you.

[DocPop 1]

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Anyone not 'toe-ing the line' in terms of canopy control is part of the problem, regardless of who they are or what they fly.

[My bolding] But you are not disregarding what I fly. You are making it the entire focus of these tirades.

You have repeatedly told me that you don't agree with my canopy choice. Duly noted. But you cannot tell me I am part of the dangerous flying problem because you have not ONCE seen me fly. You made you point, Dave, as you have the right to. Now get off my back.

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Which brings me to my original point, what we can do on the grassroots level is not telling guys like DocPop to be safe and have a blast. Tell him he's an asshole,

Now it's Personal Attacks and name-calling? Get a grip on yourself and wind your fucking neck in. You're being counter-productive.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[craigbey 0]

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Anyone not 'toe-ing the line' in terms of canopy control is part of the problem, regardless of who they are or what they fly.

I take Dave's quote to mean that those with high jump #'s and canopy experience need to toe the line as well. Indeed, had someone intervened sooner at Perris, at least one very experienced instructor would still be with us today. The irony is that some here have referred to the deceased as a friend.

[craigbey 0]

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But what steps are is your dz taking to decrease the carnage next Saturday before the education kicks in?

2 words ... 'Weather Hold'. This spring really sucks.

Something that Sandy has been cultivating at our DZ for years is a 'Culture of Safety'. It takes root when people respect and listen to each other and are active participants in the sport. It is fostered by instructors and experienced skydivers who communicate with each other and teach everyone at the DZ to do the same.

It really doesn't mater how effective the rules or punishment(s) may be if the consequences of a mistake can be fatal. You have to convice people to work together, respect each other and respect the dangers that are part of the sport.

You also have to watch the behaviors of others and help them recognize when they might be taking on too much risk or potentially risking the safety of their fellow jumpers. That's what friends do for each other.

[davelepka 4]

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I take Dave's quote to mean that those with high jump #'s and canopy experience need to toe the line as well

Big surprise. A jumper with significant experience and time in the sport understands quite celarly what I'm saying. The jumper who is a part of the problem does not.

In any case of mis-communication, there is either a problem in the delivery or acceptance of the message. In this case, I'll rest assured that it wasn't the delivery.

[davelepka 4]

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You have repeatedly told me that you don't agree with my canopy choice. Duly noted. But you cannot tell me I am part of the dangerous flying problem because you have not ONCE seen me fly. You made you point, Dave, as you have the right to. Now get off my back.

I don't need to see you fly. Knowing full well the scope of the problem with canopy control, you in your infinite wisdom have disregarded anthing even close to common sense, and make the choice to fly and swoop a canopy WAY out of your league (swooping anything at your level is pushing it).

Somewhere, somehow, you have decieded that common sense does not apply to you, and that some action on your part has made you immune to the pitfalls of others. Where exactly does that begin and end? You think it's OK for you to disregard the general consensus with regrads to canopy control, and I have no idea what other rules you will eventually unilaterally deciede don't apply to you.

Your attitude toward the statisticaly most dangerous part of skydiving shows a disregard for common sense and a lack of self-control on your part. I think it's dangerous, a hazzard to others and the sport in general. If you want me off your back, start acting like a new jumper with little experience, have some respect for common sense, and the sport in general, and clean up your act.

Barring that, you can expect me examine anyting you post with a magnifying galss, expose any faults in the most obvious and embarrasing way I can muster. My hope is that you'll get the message and 'check yo self', but I'm not going to hold my breath. At the very least, I can only hope you keep your trap shut, and don't infect other jumpers with whatever it is that's wrong with you.

[DocPop 1]

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I don't need to see you fly.

So now you've added mind-reading to your list of skills? And you think I am arrogant. just because the numbers don't stack up in your mind, does not mean you have the right to brand me as dangerous.

You know what they say about assumption.....

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You think it's OK for you to disregard the general consensus with regrads to canopy control, and I have no idea what other rules you will eventually unilaterally deciede don't apply to you.

I am not breaking any rules. If and when they become implemented I will do what it takes to adhere to them. Until that point I take it upon my self to seek professional canopy coaching every year which is far beyond what most fun jumpers do.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[davelepka 4]

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I am not breaking any rules

Now. You are clearly going far against the grain when it comes to canopy selection and learning progressions. There might not be rules in place in those areas, but you're nowhere near what would be considered 'prudent'. Written rules or not, you know damn well what you're doing, and you do it anyway.

You expect me to believe that just because some other thing you don't think should apply to you is written in a book you'll refrain from doing that thing? The one thing that you are doing is proven to be the biggest problem we have in skydiving, and that's not enough to get you to make a reasonable and prudent choice in that area, but being written in a book is what will reel you in?

I've just had enough. I wouldn't stand quitely by if this was happening on my DZ, and I'm not going to do it here any longer. If you were leaving your helmet unsecured on take-off, I would speak up loudly and put a stop to it. If you continued, I'd have you grounded, or toss your helmet out of the door as we taxi to the end of the runway. All of that, and flying helmets aren't even that big of a problem in skydiving. They're a potential problem in the event of a crash, but not a proven problem that has been killing dozens of jumpers per year.

This canopy control business has been killing dozens every year, and you're giving it the big 'F you', so I'm going to turn around and give you the same. You have no business on that canopy, let alone swooping it. I don't care who you are, 250 jumps isn't enough. It's been proven time and time again. A kid just killed himself (and almost someone esle) in Australia with the same attitude, swooping a HP canopy with little experience. Despite all this, you still continue on down your path.

In the word of Iceman to Maverick in Top Gun, "You're danergous". While Maverick may have come up the hero in the end of the movie, that was Hollywood, where they can manufacture anything. Even in Hollywood, Maverick had to kill Goose before he could come out the other side. Subtract the Hollywood ending, and add soem reality, you're left with you killing someone, and probably killing or injuring yourself in the process.

There's no justifiaction for what you're doing, and the fact that you can't see that is the problem. Like I said, I don't know what else you're not going to be able to see when it's right in front of your face, that's what should worry those around you.

[DocPop 1]

Listen, pal, this is the last time I am going to rise to your "I am the King of Skydiving" comments.

My main mentor has twice your jump numbers and has seen me fly. Who do you think I am going to pay attention to?

Go pick on some other low jump number person who might roll over and submit to your bullying.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[davelepka 4]

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Listen, pal, this is the last time I am going to rise to your "I am the King of Skydiving" comments

I'm not your pal. I'm also not the king of anything, I make choices in line with my skill and experience like an averge person. You, on the other hand, seem to think that your shit doesn't stink, and that you can do anything you damn well please.

Just because your mentor has twice my jumsp means nothing. I have a different read on the situation than he does, I'm of the opinion that if everyone made better choices with regards to canopy control, and took it a little more seriously, then we would see a reduction in the incidents stemming from canopy control.

You point to all your 'training', which with only 250 jumps can't really be all that much, but you point to it frequently. However, what you never point to, or maybe never realized yourself, you're also the poster child for Booth's law which states that for every advancement in safety within the sport of skydiving, jumpers will find an equal but opposite risk to undertake to cancel out that advancement.

In your case, you take canopy control courses, recieve individual coaching and have a mentor. All good things, all things that will help you become a better, safer canopy pilot. Then you turn around and start swooping a Katana at 1.5 WL. The danger of the canopy and what you do with it cancels out all the good things you have done in your favor. You took steps to make yourself a better, safer pilot, an asset to the community if you will, then you started swooping a canopy you have no business jumping. The end result being a big fat goose egg, aka nothing.

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this is the last time

According to who?

[FB1609 0]

Docpop, nobody is going to seriously listen to anything you say. With 250 jumps, you are a novice. Hope you get the chance to look back at yourself if you make it to 2000 jumps or so, you will see what a fool you are/were.

[grimmie 179]

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Quote

Step back and relax. Fly that 135 with care. Learn it and enjoy it. Be careful.

Don't tell him that. That's part of the problem.

We know that statisticly you're most likely to die under an open parachute. We also know that those deaths are spread around pretty evenly between solos and collisions, and HP and non-HP, so there is no one 'magic bullet' we can look to in solving the problem. Anyone not 'toe-ing the line' in terms of canopy control is part of the problem, regardless of who they are or what they fly.

The guy you responded to is flying a HP canopy at 1.5 WL with 250 jumps. Don't tell him to fly with care, because that implies consent. Tell him to stop being an asshole, stop adding to the problem, and get back in the middle of the bell curve and fly something even remotely appropriate to his experience.

Don't suffer the fools lightly. That's how we got here, and continuing to do so is how were going to be stuck here. This is the land of the free, and we tried to be free and easy with this canopy business, but it didn't work out.

We gave it a fair shot. Over the last 20 years, the first 10 could have been looked at as an 'adjustment period'. New canopies, new technologies, let's see if everyone can just figure it out on their own. The old guys need to figure how to transition from F-111, and 'the establishment' needs to figure how to teach the new guys coming into the sport how to deal with these new canopies.

So that's the first 10 years. The last 10 years hasn't been any better, and now it's time to give up on the idea of 'natural selection', and stop being so 'free'. For years, virtually every other country on earth has had strict on-going educational requirements in place, and even stricter limitation on what sizes and types of canopies any one person can jump. Now it's time that we got on board and did the same.

Of course this means that for the most part were in the hands of the 'powers the be' waiting for them to get their shit together and get some structure up in this bitch. God only knows how long that's going to take.

Which brings me to my original point, what we can do on the grassroots level is not telling guys like DocPop to be safe and have a blast. Tell him he's an asshole, and he's most of what's wrong with skydiving. He knows what he's doing is far outside 'the norm', what's his next move outside 'the norm' that he will deciede is OK, and just do it anyway? I don't want to find out, so I'm not going to encourage that type of behavior. Neither should you.

Dave,
I told him that because I think he is a troll. And if he isn't then the guys at his DZ need to intervene. There's a lot we can't overcome on the internet. If I met Doc Pop in person and saw what is REALLY going on, then I would intervene.
And for the record, since we have never met, you will never have to encourage me to stop idiotic behaviour at the DZ. I do it all of the time.
Ask this year's Boogie in Belize infamous "load 3" jumpers how I view idiot behaviour under canopy.

There is only so much you can do. That's why I pointed out advice from older jumpers. When I was a newbie and Jim Wallace spoke, we all listened like that old EF Hutton commercial. Everyone listened.