Ron 7 #251 November 28, 2011 Quote Then what's the point of the requirement? For those that want an unrestricted license. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 0 #252 November 28, 2011 Quote Quote Quote there is no way you can be on hold long enough that jumpers would be exiting even close to night conditions. So if that is the argument then why not make the qualification jumps right after sunset. Also, the jumpers do not have to jump and shouldn't if not comfortable. Quote I can discount all three of your statements by recalling one jump some years back...DC-3 sunset load at Elsonore. LZ is in a valley, it gets dark there when the sun gets low, the aircraft wasn't used all that often at the time and it was slow to get going and slow to climb. And if YOU would rather land in a large 50 year old airplane on a dark dirt strip then jump jump out, you are a lot more trusting of factors out of your control that is wise. Don't say it can't happen because it can and has. Having the experience of several hundred night jumps under my belt, I had no problem making the skydive. If you have the tool in your box to deal with it then there is no issue. If you can't or won't jump at night for whatever reason then don't, just don't get the D or get the waiver 'almost' a D...but don't try to dumb down the requirement for everyone. Having actually performed the jumps just may help someone else... Why 'fix it' if it ain't broke? That didn't really discount anything I was saying. I seriously doubt it was "night time" conditions. It sounds like there was an error in judgement to begin with and the plane should have never taken off...... chain of events begins. Did the plane land safely? If you are asking if the smart move would be land with the plane if one was not comfortable with the conditions, the answer is YES. Scary maybe but just taking off in say... a twin beech on a grass runway is too. The conditions you explain means many people did something that they should not have done... correct? Whatever ya say champ, I guess if YOU would have been there to organize it there wouldn't have been any question...but you weren't & I don't live in your perfect world where everything goes as it should. In my world half the day is in darkness, having the night jump experience is just one less thing I ever have to worry about when walking up to manifest at the end of he day...just keep your lights handy! I'll type slower for ya this time...'It can happen and does' ...things don't always go as planned, that's why you have a reserve. Once again, if you don't wanna do it, then don't...just don't make your insecurity a change of policy for everyone else. Okay "big man"..... see I can be condescending too. I apparently need to type.... I have jumped at night. i liked it and will continue to like it. I know things do not go as planned and if in your world it can get to those conditions that fast then someone screwed up and the plane should not have legally taken off.... right? Once again, the jumpers can land with the plane. On another note.... I appreciate your experienced advice and always have just like I have of other experienced jumpers. I have never had a bad attitude towards those willing to share and I still do not. I have a lot to learn so please, stow the attitude.Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #253 November 28, 2011 QuoteThere isn't any point beyond "I did it, so you newbies have to". All the arguments about sunset loads are just silly, since no night training at all is needed to get on a sunset load. You keep saying that... But that is only because you ignore all the other reasons given."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #254 November 28, 2011 Quote Quote Then what's the point of the requirement? For those that want an unrestricted license. What's the difference? Jumping at night? Oh, and here's one for you: If a person were to get a D-License with a no night jump restriction, then decide they want to get their full unrestricted license (so their number doesn't end in 'R')... Wouldn't it be a violation of their license to do night jumps now? "I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 0 #255 November 28, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Bottom line, if you want the award (which is too easy to reach, IMO), then you gotta do the work. Well, if it were an award or a boy scout merit badge, I'd agree with you. However, it isn't. It's a LICENSE. Different thing altogether. And if you want an Achievement award, you have to do 2 night jumps. Exactly. But a LICENSE is not an AWARD. Quote 1000-jump wings? Gotta have the D. I fail to see the relevancy. You want a Performance award? USPA mentions no license requirement. How about an award for those who complete all specialty jumps? Ummmm....one might add the requirement of "successfully". Another stupid part of the requirement. You can break both femurs on the first night jump and land in a tree and break your back on the second, and STILL qualify. Agreed... that is a point I made above.Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #256 November 28, 2011 QuoteWhat's the difference? Jumping at night? Yes, very simple huh? Don't want to meet the standards put into place: 1. Stick with a "C" 2. Get a restricted license. QuoteWouldn't it be a violation of their license to do night jumps now? Now you are just being silly."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 0 #257 November 28, 2011 Quote>Since the concern seems to be TWILIGHT jumps, why not require training in >twilight conditions instead of night conditions? Sure, as long as it is as dark as any twilight jump will be. I think this is a good idea. It is practical and has a reason. Twilight jumps should be a requirement not jumps an hour after sunset. Twilight jumps have application.Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #258 November 28, 2011 Quote Quote >Since the concern seems to be TWILIGHT jumps, why not require training in >twilight conditions instead of night conditions? Sure, as long as it is as dark as any twilight jump will be. I think this is a good idea. It is practical and has a reason. Twilight jumps should be a requirement not jumps an hour after sunset. Twilight jumps have application. There ya go. A reason to show up at the BOD meeting and S&T committee in February to present a cause for change. Two twilight jumps in addition to the two night jumps seem very practical to me. That said, come join the G.L.O.W. event at Elsinore in January. Wingsuit night jumps for women are gonna be happenin. Women Wingsuits Nightjumps... must be the wrong thread with all these guys whining about nightjumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 0 #259 November 28, 2011 Quote Quote Quote >Since the concern seems to be TWILIGHT jumps, why not require training in >twilight conditions instead of night conditions? Sure, as long as it is as dark as any twilight jump will be. I think this is a good idea. It is practical and has a reason. Twilight jumps should be a requirement not jumps an hour after sunset. Twilight jumps have application. There ya go. A reason to show up at the BOD meeting and S&T committee in February to present a cause for change. Two twilight jumps in addition to the two night jumps seem very practical to me. That said, come join the G.L.O.W. event at Elsinore in January. Wingsuit night jumps for women are gonna be happenin. Women Wingsuits Nightjumps... must be the wrong thread with all these guys whining about nightjumps. lol Sounds like a fun event. I still have to do my rw night jump which will either happen at a boogie over the winter or I have to wait until next spring . As for wingsuit night jumps........ not my thing. I think wingsuits are cool but not what I want to focus on. Maybe I will make it to the BOD meeting but I would propose 2 twilight jumps to replace the night jumps Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #260 November 28, 2011 >since no night training at all is needed to get on a sunset load. No water training at all is needed to get on a jump next to a lake. Still, the water training is a good thing overall - despite the risks of injury or drowning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #261 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteWhat's the difference? Jumping at night? Yes, very simple huh? Don't want to meet the standards put into place: 1. Stick with a "C" 2. Get a restricted license. QuoteWouldn't it be a violation of their license to do night jumps now? Now you are just being silly. What are you allowed to do with a D-xxxx that you aren't allowed to do with a D-xxxxR?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #262 November 29, 2011 QuoteWhat are you allowed to do with a D-xxxx that you aren't allowed to do with a D-xxxxR? Nothing that I know of.... So it just solidifies my comment about either: 1. Do the jumps 2. Stick with the "C" 3. Get a waiver."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #263 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteWhat's the difference? Jumping at night? Yes, very simple huh? Don't want to meet the standards put into place: 1. Stick with a "C" 2. Get a restricted license. QuoteWouldn't it be a violation of their license to do night jumps now? Now you are just being silly. What are you allowed to do with a D-xxxx that you aren't allowed to do with a D-xxxxR? Qualify for a PRO and perform a night time demo, you may not WANT to do a night demo but IF you did... you wouldn't be 'allowed' to from what I understand. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #264 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWhat's the difference? Jumping at night? Yes, very simple huh? Don't want to meet the standards put into place: 1. Stick with a "C" 2. Get a restricted license. QuoteWouldn't it be a violation of their license to do night jumps now? Now you are just being silly. What are you allowed to do with a D-xxxx that you aren't allowed to do with a D-xxxxR? Qualify for a PRO and perform a night time demo, you may not WANT to do a night demo but IF you did... you wouldn't be 'allowed' to from what I understand. DO you think 2 night jumps with no criterion for success except survival qualifies you to make night demos? Maybe night accuracy jumps should be required to get a PRO rating with night demo privileges.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #265 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteWhat are you allowed to do with a D-xxxx that you aren't allowed to do with a D-xxxxR? Nothing that I know of.... So it just solidifies my comment about either: 1. Do the jumps 2. Stick with the "C" 3. Get a waiver. I think it liquifies your comment and shows that the night jump serves no real purpose for the license.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #266 November 29, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote What's the difference? Jumping at night? Yes, very simple huh? Don't want to meet the standards put into place: 1. Stick with a "C" 2. Get a restricted license. Quote Wouldn't it be a violation of their license to do night jumps now? Now you are just being silly. What are you allowed to do with a D-xxxx that you aren't allowed to do with a D-xxxxR? Qualify for a PRO and perform a night time demo, you may not WANT to do a night demo but IF you did... you wouldn't be 'allowed' to from what I understand. DO you think 2 night jumps with no criterion for success except survival qualifies you to make night demos? Maybe night accuracy jumps should be required to get a PRO rating with night demo privileges. ?? You asked what you can do with a unrestricted D that you can't do with a restricted one...I said get a PRO and do night demos~ how did you jump to making two night jumps as qualifying you for night demo jumping? Two night jumps doesn't qualify you for a PRO Rating, earning the rating qualifies you to perform demos...having the night jumps is part of the basic requirement for a D which is needed for the PRO Rating. Part of holding the PRO Rating is continually accessing one's ability to safely perform a given demonstration jump and standing down if they are not experienced in what the demo calls for. Knowing ones limitations and staying within them. The PRO Rating like all the advanced ratings not only certifies that one has met certain minimum standards but that their judgement is deemed as such that they are trusted to make decisions regarding the likelihood of a positive outcome. I don't personally know of any PRO Rating holders that would make a first time tight night demo, without getting applicable training and experience prior. Having a D doesn't automatically qualify your for a PRO Rating, it merely shows you've met the minimum standard of qualification for allowing you to try for it. Having a PRO Rating doesn't automatically qualify you for any and all demos...it merely shows you have met the minimum standard of qualifications to hold that rating, to KEEP the rating it's advisable you only do demos you can safely and successfully perform, if in your judgement that means seeking additional training and experience you do so. (~you know all this but since you want to argue balls & strikes in the end-zone...I take a couple swings with a football-bat) ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #267 November 29, 2011 >DO you think 2 night jumps with no criterion for success except survival qualifies you >to make night demos? Nope; it's a bare minimum that barely lets you land out in a big open field at night. If you're lucky. However, 2 night jumps with a PRO rating is a pretty good criterion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #268 November 29, 2011 Quote What are you allowed to do with a D-xxxx that you aren't allowed to do with a D-xxxxR? Quote Qualify for a PRO and perform a night time demo, you may not WANT to do a night demo but IF you did... you wouldn't be 'allowed' to from what I understand. Oh, the irony...My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #269 November 29, 2011 Quote Riding an old, fully loaded airplane down to land in the dark on a short dirt strip is also a choice...just not a real smart one. First mistake: Getting ON the damned thing. Ahhhhh but we do what we do... My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #270 November 29, 2011 Quote Quote What's the difference? Jumping at night? Yes, very simple huh? Don't want to meet the standards put into place: 1. Stick with a "C" 2. Get a restricted license.. More of that "maintain the status quo...I had to do it, you should too." You miss the entire point....read the thread. the point has been explained to you guys many, many times and you got yer blinders on... My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #271 November 29, 2011 QuoteMore of that "maintain the status quo...I had to do it, you should too." You miss the entire point....read the thread. the point has been explained to you guys many, many times and you got yer blinders on... Oh Please, your comment just proves you have not read the whole thread or just are so blind in your views you refuse to listen to anyone else. There are none so blind as those like you that think you are the only one with a valid opinion."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #272 November 30, 2011 QuoteI think it liquifies your comment and shows that the night jump serves no real purpose for the license. Just shows that you have refuses to listen to anyone else when they have explained the error of your thinking over and over.... And this just shows how you ignored the same comments about the night flying requirements as well. But hey, feel free to ignore the data that you disagree with... It is your norm. And I am tired of wasting time trying to discuss anything with a person with such a closed mind and irrational arguments."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #273 November 30, 2011 QuoteQuoteI think it liquifies your comment and shows that the night jump serves no real purpose for the license. Just shows that you have refuses to listen to anyone else when they have explained the error of your thinking over and over.... And this just shows how you ignored the same comments about the night flying requirements as well. But hey, feel free to ignore the data that you disagree with... It is your norm. And I am tired of wasting time trying to discuss anything with a person with such a closed mind and irrational arguments. Ron, the closed minds are those that want to retain the status quo without any meaningful analysis. Your night flight/jump analogy is so completely bogus as to be laughable. I refer you to FAR Part 61.110. And you've already pointed out that the D-xxxxR is just as useful as the D-xxxx. The "sunset load gone wrong" argument is completely debunked. Twilight presents different problems than night, and the after sunset jump is illegal anyway if you don't have lights. Not one argument you've put forward amounts to anything beyond "that's the way it's always been".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #274 November 30, 2011 I'm impressed at everyone's staying power here but it's getting pretty ridiculous. Benefits of a night jump: - Requires more focus and training to complete successfully - that's a good thing - It's really fun - It's an interesting challenge that allows people to break the mold and learn something - Learn more about FAA requirements as they intersect with skydiving Advantages of having said night jumps associated with attaining a D license (but any license): - All of the above but allows someone who has achieved the highest regular license to understand possibilities - Makes people work at getting their D, otherwise it's just a checkbox next to "has 500 jumps/6 hours air time" Disadvantages: - No clearly useful defined criteria for success except "hey, you didn't die" - Other than "expert" designation, no clear reason it's associated with a D license and not any other (I'd guess it's safer to put this requirement on a D than say a B license because you'd hope someone would have developed some judgement by then) - Potential for injury Several people in this thread who've done night jumps have stated very clearly that they've been on regular loads where, by the time they were given the go ahead to jump, they were left with the choice to make a night jump (possibly without meeting FAA lighting requirements) or land with a plane that they feel is more risky. They tell you that it's the same but you disagree and see that as a reason to dismiss that outright I'm not sure why. You don't have to get a D license if you don't want to. If you do want a D then you can get a waiver if you don't want to do the night jumps for safety reasons. To me there seems to be a lot of reasons why people feel that night jumps being a requirement for the D license is useful. The contention against is that night jumps have no value and that seems to be the core of the issue. I think they have value, I've done several including New Years jumps into ZHills a couple of years ago. Excellent experience. Going through the training, the pre sunset/twilight training jump was actually useful and taught me things. You can say you don't think it's useful but just outright denying other people's opinions but holding your own to be immutable is pretty myopic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #275 November 30, 2011 Nope. Ron. you just keep spouting the same irrelevant old fart stuff and dodge the issue entirely.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
