Start Skydiving???

[riggerpaul 1]

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If he simply didn't withhold any money, all his employees would have to be complicit.

That seems unlikely to me. So I wonder if we simply do not have the whole story.

Not really that unusually. How many skydivers pay taxes on those wages?

But the reports all say he did not collect taxes which means to me that the employees had nothing withheld. However, that doesn't mean he could not be manipulating their paychecks to make it look like they had with holding then keeping the extra wages for himself intead of paying taxes to the government.

The skydivers who don't pay taxes on the money they make skydiving do not appear to be employees. They appear, rightly or wrongly, to be contractors, and as such, are responsible for their own taxes. Current law calls for those people to get 1099 forms for that income. The person writing the checks to the contractors is not allowed to take withholding payments out.

Employees, on the other hand, as supposed to have withholding taken out of their paychecks. If true employees are not seeing any withholding in their pay stubs, they would have to be complicit to let it continue.

Withholding is supposed to be collected from each paycheck. But it doesn't go to the government but 4 times a year. In the meantime, it is in a bank account held by the employer. If he doesn't make the "quarterly" payment, nothing happens immediately.

If he really didn't collect the taxes by withholding, then the employees are also liable to be charged with tax violations. Were they? If they weren't, then it is most likely that he withheld the monies, and put them in his own pocket instead of making the periodic payments to the government.

This is sort of like raiding a corporate pension fund. Legally, it isn't actually stealing from the employees. But most people would still call it theft.

[Profman 0]

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GEE WIZ what a big surprise, someone from the start camp plays the "axe grinding" card.......

Go see your doctor and get your nose checked, but you might want to wait till the kool aid is out of your system first and your inflammatory comment removed by slotperfect.

Ok, I didn't want to get drawn in to this but what the hell, here goes. I don't know all the facts. Moreover, I was not present during the negotiations with the IRS, specifically the criminal investigation division, nor was I at the trial. But here is the point Statostar/DBcoopper or whoever the hell you are, NEITHER WERE YOU.

You cast dispersions with so much venom that it shows a clear lack of class and intellect. Indeed, given the joy to which you appear to take in Mr. Hart's problems, I suspect you have some personal vendetta against Start and/or Mr. Hart. Tell us, were you turned down for a job there or something?

What in the world could cause you to take such personal satisfaction in seeing a man go to prison, his family suffer, and his business--yes a SKYDIVING business--tarnished? There has to be something more to this than you are telling us, so please, do tell!

And since you have such a fondness for broadcasting the personal faults of others, how about you also tell everyone how you have screwed up in your life? Ever taken drugs? Ever engaged in any unethical behavior?

I deal with criminals for a living. Over the years I've learned that sometimes the folks that scream the loudest for justice are the very individuals you need to look at.

I do not have to defend Mr. Hart. He and his family will pay the price for his violations. However, your behavior sickens me as only cowards trash people anonymously, take joy in the suffering of others, and kick a man when he is down.

The dangers of life are infinite, and among them is safety.

[davelepka 4]

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They only state he failed to collect the taxes. But everyone seems to assume he was stealing as well.

Your basing your entire argument based on the use of the term 'collect' in various media outlets, but we all know how unreliable the media can be when you try to analyze every single word.

What they all seem to agree on is that his company did not pay Medicare and Social Sec. on the employee earnings for a period of several years.
They all also agree that he has plead guilty, and the courts have accepted the plea.

Now, if the paychecks didn't reflect any withholdings, the employees themselves would have been on the hook for making those payments as their 'take home' pay would have included the money normally witheld for those payments. We can see by the outcome of the court proceedings that the burden of repayment has fallen to Hart, indicating that the employees were under the impression that all payments were made, and for the purposes of this matter, the IRS was satisfied that they (the employees) all filed their taxes in good faith durng that time period.

Furthermore, if the employees did recieve the money that should have been used for those payments, Selection.com woud have only been on the hook for violations of the tax code, most likely related to paying people classified as 'employees' as if they were 'contrators'.

So we can glean that the employees paychecks were marked as if all witholdings and payments were made, and that there was no wrongdoing on their part. This leaves the ball sqaurely in the court of Selection.com and Hart.

This is where it starts to look bad for Hart. If the money was held internally, or used for the purposes of maintaining or growing the business, it seems the IRS would be going after the business itself, and not Hart personally. I have no facts to back this up, but I would have to take a guess that the business was a corp. of one sort or another, set up to protect the interests of the business and the prinicpals alike. That said, the fact that the IRS has put this burden squarely on Hart personally, and went to the trouble to site the counrty clubs and skydiving activities in perticular is telling in itself.

However, to the guy accusing Hart of 'ruining' people lives and retirements, I call foul on those points. For starters, the time period in question is only a few years, and nobody's financial future lies in the work and benefits they earned in just a few years time.

Furthermore, and more to the point, the $680,000 the IRS wants from Hart is the sum total of all payments, interest, and penalties not paid in a timely fashion. Once that money is collected, the interest and penalties will be a 'windfall' for the IRS, but the principal will be applied to the payments that should have been made in the first place. The Medicare and Soc Sec. accounts of all the employees will be made 'whole', and they will recieve the full benefits of the payments made commensurate with their earnings, even if those payments were made several years late. I'm quite sure the IRS factored in any lost interest or benefits on the part of the employees due to the 'late' payments, and rolled that right into the $680,000 figure. Those guys aren't known for missing an angle or loophole.

[stratostar 5]

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Ok, I didn't want to get drawn in to this but what the hell

Then maybe you should just shut the fuck up!

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NEITHER WERE YOU

Didn't need to be I can read the public record! And for the record the link I posted was to the OP, because as usual from the Start camp you people can't tell the full story and continue to repeat the lies you were told and or leave out little things like 679.000 in fines!

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You cast dispersions with so much venom

Really posting factual info of the public news stories is casting dispersions with venom, eh. have yourself another cup of kool aid. And where the fuck you get all this joy from in my post, who the fuck made you the posting police? You clearly read into my post what you too and nothing I say will change your mind, nor do I care to try to change it.

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I suspect you have some personal vendetta against Start

Nope, nada, none

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and/or Mr. Hart. Tell us, were you turned down for a job there or something?

Nope, nada, not stupid enough to try to get a job there for one thing due to a few scumbags I don't care to be around who all jumped ship from that other crook up the road and ran to Mr. Hart to suck his dick.

Any problems between me and that dz have nothing to do with John Hart or Gene Newsome or any other staff members there currently. Only problem I've ever had at that DZ has been with one lying lowlife prick who was our USPA regional director at the time, and that fact has never been hidden, in fact it's been posted in public a number of times.

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What in the world could cause you to take such personal satisfaction in seeing a man go to prison

Again who the fuck are you to decide how I feel about any this?

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yes a SKYDIVING business--tarnished?

you mean a skydiving business built on illegal money just like skydive america was, maybe you missed that in my first post, kool aid must still be burning up your brain cells, that or you just have a hard on for those who have anything to say on the topic at hand.

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There has to be something more to this than you are telling us, so please, do tell!

What you mean the facts like, I worked at all three dropzones in the area before Mr.Hart came around throwing his illegal around money to impress everyone. Guess what Mr. Posting police I worked at a lot of dropzones. Haven't been in the area in almost 3 years, nor do I work for any DZ's in the region, nor do I live in the region!

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how about you also tell everyone how you have screwed up in your life?

Dispite what ever line of bullshit your fellow kool aid drinkers would like you to believe, my life is just fine and has never been screwed up, in fact I'm doing quite well with a nice house, wife and kid. And we didn't need to cheat the US gov out of tax money to pay for our skydiving or for the country club dues!

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Ever taken drugs?

Like that really means anything, only fucking retards and those in LE or military backgrounds and up tight republicans tout that fucking card as proof someone is a bad person.... Maybe I should start publicly dropping all the names of people from Start Skydiving who have been known to attended safety meetings, or do XTC and blow every damn weekend or at boogies who on staff there.

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I do not have to defend Mr. Hart

Well your doing a hell of a job trying, maybe you should have been on his lawyers pay roll.

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However, your behavior sickens me

Really, yet you clearly support a con man and felon, I could care less what you think of my behavior, if you don't like it don't fucking read my post!

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as only cowards trash people anonymously,

Those who need to know, know and it's really none of your business who I'am if you didn't come in to stir the shit and try to inject words and or make wild ass claims about my first post and the reason behind it being posted as well as act like a prick maybe I would have told you, doubt it though.

However it's clear your now the company PR guy to whitewash the facts , I bet your making the kool aid too.

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take joy in the suffering of others

See there you go again talking out your ass!

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and kick a man when he is down.

Not even close, however I'm sure you'll chime back in here and keep up you personal attack of me or anyone else who trys to talk about the public record who has ever worked for another dz in the area all while touting the kool aid party line of bullshit all about what a great guy Mr. Hart is and how that DZ was not built on illegal money Mr. Hart was just sent to the big house for taking to fund his skydiving ventures and of course GOLF too!

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clear lack of class and intellect

Yea same can be said for the head their up ass defenders who try to twist and read into other peoples post because they wish the reports of their so called "patriotic hero" would go away and people wouldn't or shouldn't talk about it or you'll try to point the finger at them (common defense legal tactic) and claim

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folks that scream the loudest for justice are the very individuals you need to look at.

I've never said or post anything about justice being served in this case 1) pointed out the fact he was order to pay 679K. 2) laughed at those who posted in the linked news story how it was some other slection employee who was guilty and then died. 3) pointed out the fact it a lot like Larry Kershenbaum and skydive america 4) also found it funny those who have been saying he already paid it back when clearly he has not.

Yet you seem to read into that post and then come in a start swing your dick around at me and my post.

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I deal with criminals for a living

You must suck at your job then, because you seem to fail to see Mr. Hart's actions are the ones that got him into the problems he is facing, not any of us here.

You want keep on point finger at those of us who choose to talk about this on a fourm and lable us as "taking joy in, kicking when down, dispersions with so much venom" and or implying we are causing more suffering to his family because you don't like what others have to say or posting links to news stories and not some bullshit from facebook of Start, it is fine with me, myself and most everyone who dosen't work for or jump and support Mr. Hart, know he and he alone is to blame for suffering caused to his family or his business due to his actions, no matter how you try to skirt it and place blame on someone else. (oh yea I forgot the the dead guy who did it all and hung it on John and then died)

The facts are pretty clear:

1. John got busted using money that should have been sent to the government.

2. it was just under 680K and it's been spent

3. He is going to do time and be a felon now

4. It's his own fault and his harm of family and business and his alone.

I will admit it would be fun to to be there the day the IRS waltz's in there like Willie Nelsons house and takes all the assets that say "sponsored by slection.com" or "slection.com" and see you and your buddies standing around with a stupid look on your faces and kool aid cups in hand wondering where your going to go jump next and the only reason there would be even the slightest satisfaction in any of that is simply due to a number of other pricks that jump there who are just like you.

Have nice day and happy future posting, I'm done engaging you in your little delusional blame game based on a post you don't like.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Halfpastniner 0]

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Ok, I didn't want to get drawn in to this but what the hell

Then maybe you should just shut the fuck up!

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NEITHER WERE YOU

Didn't need to be I can read the public record! And for the record the link I posted was to the OP, because as usual from the Start camp you people can't tell the full story and continue to repeat the lies you were told and or leave out little things like 679.000 in fines!

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You cast dispersions with so much venom

Really posting factual info of the public news stories is casting dispersions with venom, eh. have yourself another cup of kool aid. And where the fuck you get all this joy from in my post, who the fuck made you the posting police? You clearly read into my post what you too and nothing I say will change your mind, nor do I care to try to change it.

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I suspect you have some personal vendetta against Start

Nope, nada, none

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and/or Mr. Hart. Tell us, were you turned down for a job there or something?

Nope, nada, not stupid enough to try to get a job there for one thing due to a few scumbags I don't care to be around who all jumped ship from that other crook up the road and ran to Mr. Hart to suck his dick.

Any problems between me and that dz have nothing to do with John Hart or Gene Newsome or any other staff members there currently. Only problem I've ever had at that DZ has been with one lying lowlife prick who was our USPA regional director at the time, and that fact has never been hidden, in fact it's been posted in public a number of times.

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What in the world could cause you to take such personal satisfaction in seeing a man go to prison

Again who the fuck are you to decide how I feel about any this?

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yes a SKYDIVING business--tarnished?

you mean a skydiving business built on illegal money just like skydive america was, maybe you missed that in my first post, kool aid must still be burning up your brain cells, that or you just have a hard on for those who have anything to say on the topic at hand.

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There has to be something more to this than you are telling us, so please, do tell!

What you mean the facts like, I worked at all three dropzones in the area before Mr.Hart came around throwing his illegal around money to impress everyone. Guess what Mr. Posting police I worked at a lot of dropzones. Haven't been in the area in almost 3 years, nor do I work for any DZ's in the region, nor do I live in the region!

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how about you also tell everyone how you have screwed up in your life?

Dispite what ever line of bullshit your fellow kool aid drinkers would like you to believe, my life is just fine and has never been screwed up, in fact I'm doing quite well with a nice house, wife and kid. And we didn't need to cheat the US gov out of tax money to pay for our skydiving or for the country club dues!

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Ever taken drugs?

Like that really means anything, only fucking retards and those in LE or military backgrounds and up tight republicans tout that fucking card as proof someone is a bad person.... Maybe I should start publicly dropping all the names of people from Start Skydiving who have been known to attended safety meetings, or do XTC and blow every damn weekend or at boogies who on staff there.

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I do not have to defend Mr. Hart

Well your doing a hell of a job trying, maybe you should have been on his lawyers pay roll.

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However, your behavior sickens me

Really, yet you clearly support a con man and felon, I could care less what you think of my behavior, if you don't like it don't fucking read my post!

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as only cowards trash people anonymously,

Those who need to know, know and it's really none of your business who I'am if you didn't come in to stir the shit and try to inject words and or make wild ass claims about my first post and the reason behind it being posted as well as act like a prick maybe I would have told you, doubt it though.

However it's clear your now the company PR guy to whitewash the facts , I bet your making the kool aid too.

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take joy in the suffering of others

See there you go again talking out your ass!

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and kick a man when he is down.

Not even close, however I'm sure you'll chime back in here and keep up you personal attack of me or anyone else who trys to talk about the public record who has ever worked for another dz in the area all while touting the kool aid party line of bullshit all about what a great guy Mr. Hart is and how that DZ was not built on illegal money Mr. Hart was just sent to the big house for taking to fund his skydiving ventures and of course GOLF too!

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clear lack of class and intellect

Yea same can be said for the head their up ass defenders who try to twist and read into other peoples post because they wish the reports of their so called "patriotic hero" would go away and people wouldn't or shouldn't talk about it or you'll try to point the finger at them (common defense legal tactic) and claim

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folks that scream the loudest for justice are the very individuals you need to look at.

I've never said or post anything about justice being served in this case 1) pointed out the fact he was order to pay 679K. 2) laughed at those who posted in the linked news story how it was some other slection employee who was guilty and then died. 3) pointed out the fact it a lot like Larry Kershenbaum and skydive america 4) also found it funny those who have been saying he already paid it back when clearly he has not.

Yet you seem to read into that post and then come in a start swing your dick around at me and my post.

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I deal with criminals for a living

You must suck at your job then, because you seem to fail to see Mr. Hart's actions are the ones that got him into the problems he is facing, not any of us here.

You want keep on point finger at those of us who choose to talk about this on a fourm and lable us as "taking joy in, kicking when down, dispersions with so much venom" and or implying we are causing more suffering to his family because you don't like what others have to say or posting links to news stories and not some bullshit from facebook of Start, it is fine with me, myself and most everyone who dosen't work for or jump and support Mr. Hart, know he and he alone is to blame for suffering caused to his family or his business due to his actions, no matter how you try to skirt it and place blame on someone else. (oh yea I forgot the the dead guy who did it all and hung it on John and then died)

The facts are pretty clear:

1. John got busted using money that should have been sent to the government.

2. it was just under 680K and it's been spent

3. He is going to do time and be a felon now

4. It's his own fault and his harm of family and business and his alone.

I will admit it would be fun to to be there the day the IRS waltz's in there like Willie Nelsons house and takes all the assets that say "sponsored by slection.com" or "slection.com" and see you and your buddies standing around with a stupid look on your faces and kool aid cups in hand wondering where your going to go jump next and the only reason there would be even the slightest satisfaction in any of that is simply due to a number of other pricks that jump there who are just like you.

Have nice day and happy future posting, I'm done engaging you in your little delusional blame game based on a post you don't like.

Yup, no axe to grind here people move along.

A dropzone founded on illegal money? Oh no! Give me a fucking break. One of the biggest dropzones in the world was founded on illegal money. People still go to that DZ, and people will still go to Start.

BASE 1384

[DiverMike 5]

Stop feeding the troll. It only makes him bigger.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[Scrumpot 1]

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But the reports all say he did not collect taxes which means to me that the employees had nothing withheld.

Semantics. I have seen several similar cases in the past & they all read the same. When someone is charged under the federal statute, this is how it reads, simply - in the legal proceedings document. The defendent "failed to collect the taxes on behalf of the US Government". This does NOT mean complicit employees (or they would have been charged/co-defendents too) & that the taxes were not shown as witheld on their paystubs. I do not know anything specific about this case - but in each of the priors I am familiar with, that each also read the exact same way - the employees paychecks did indeed show the witholdings. They simply were just not "collected" - on behalf of the US Government.

Thus the charge. (and now conviction)

None of us really, can go by merely the mass media - on EITHER side of the positioning of this. Trial transcripts are public record though, as I think someone else has already pointed out. So if there is such an interest in getting right down to absolutely all the nitty-gritty of this one, and we are so empassioned about it - before speaking so emphatically and insistently on either one side or the other of it, without some very real, tangible otherwise 1st-hand personal knowledge (again - on EITHER side of the argument) - perhaps that is what I would suggest.

As usual, the mainstream media reports themselves just might not know the full INTERPRETATIONS of what they are just merely "reporting" on either. - Ya think? Or maybe if that is what any of us want to completely RELY upon - none of us really ever have to even further delve into any incidents. Heck, they'd all be solved for us with the mainstream media report(s)!

Most famous (and prevalent) mass media quote:
"Parachute failed to open."

Just like those you are trying to rebut - you might want to get the FACTS (if you are interested in them) before you begin to argue them.

FWIW.

Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[BillyVance 34]

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A dropzone founded on illegal money? Oh no! Give me a fucking break. One of the biggest dropzones in the world was founded on illegal money. People still go to that DZ, and people will still go to Start.

Are you referring to Skydive Chicago and Roger Nelson's past? He went to prison and paid his dues, but I don't remember anything about his DZ being confiscated and assets sold off, so it's still there, and it appears that it grew bigger after the fact. But of course I don't know the whole story so I will say nothing more.

Each situation is different though. We're all at the mercy of the IRS if we fuck up. Whatever Mr Hart did, he fucked up. Time will tell what happens next to satisfy the debt/fine/etc.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

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[Halfpastniner 0]

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A dropzone founded on illegal money? Oh no! Give me a fucking break. One of the biggest dropzones in the world was founded on illegal money. People still go to that DZ, and people will still go to Start.

Are you referring to Skydive Chicago and Roger Nelson's past? He went to prison and paid his dues, but I don't remember anything about his DZ being confiscated and assets sold off, so it's still there, and it appears that it grew bigger after the fact. But of course I don't know the whole story so I will say nothing more.

Each situation is different though. We're all at the mercy of the IRS if we fuck up. Whatever Mr Hart did, he fucked up. Time will tell what happens next to satisfy the debt/fine/etc.

Exactly. Hart fucked up, and now he is paying his dues. I havent heard anything to suggest the IRS will be seizing his airplanes.

BASE 1384

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[JohnnyD 0]

Did a quick search of the newspaper stories to see which scenario was at play - either improperly classifying employees as independent contractors or failing to remit payroll taxes.

It's pretty clear that there was a failure to remit payroll taxes.

For the employees, it's highly unlikely that they would have had any idea what was going on. As far as they know they cash their paychecks, file their tax forms and go on with their lives. They will not be penalized in any way for the crimes of their boss.

[billvon 2,402]

Both of you cut it out.

[tetra316 0]

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Did a quick search of the newspaper stories to see which scenario was at play - either improperly classifying employees as independent contractors or failing to remit payroll taxes.

It's pretty clear that there was a failure to remit payroll taxes.

For the employees, it's highly unlikely that they would have had any idea what was going on. As far as they know they cash their paychecks, file their tax forms and go on with their lives. They will not be penalized in any way for the crimes of their boss.

I understand that part, his failure to remit taxes. However, it is not clear on whether he actually collected those taxes from his employees. The articles say he did not, that he failed to collect as well. But then again it may just be sematics on that part. I would just like some evidence that he either did not collect and the employees knew he was not collecting or Hart messed with their paychecks so the employees thought taxes were being withheld. That is the part that is not clear from the articles.

[BillyVance 34]

How about the court documents on the case? Are they public record? Maybe somebody can access them and put them up so we can see for sure?

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[JohnnyD 0]

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Did a quick search of the newspaper stories to see which scenario was at play - either improperly classifying employees as independent contractors or failing to remit payroll taxes.

It's pretty clear that there was a failure to remit payroll taxes.

For the employees, it's highly unlikely that they would have had any idea what was going on. As far as they know they cash their paychecks, file their tax forms and go on with their lives. They will not be penalized in any way for the crimes of their boss.

I understand that part, his failure to remit taxes. However, it is not clear on whether he actually collected those taxes from his employees. The articles say he did not, that he failed to collect as well. But then again it may just be sematics on that part. I would just like some evidence that he either did not collect and the employees knew he was not collecting or Hart messed with their paychecks so the employees thought taxes were being withheld. That is the part that is not clear from the articles.

It's just semantics. The employer doesn't actually "collect" payroll withholdings from employees. The employee gets a paycheck for $1,000 (using very round numbers here), which is a net amount. The employee's gross pay is $1,500. $500 is withheld for FICA/Medicare/Federal Withholding/State Withholding by the employer, who issues a check for $1,000. The employer has the responsibility to remit those withholdings. In this case, the employer just kept the money and now he will go to prison for that.

[tetra316 0]

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Did a quick search of the newspaper stories to see which scenario was at play - either improperly classifying employees as independent contractors or failing to remit payroll taxes.

It's pretty clear that there was a failure to remit payroll taxes.

For the employees, it's highly unlikely that they would have had any idea what was going on. As far as they know they cash their paychecks, file their tax forms and go on with their lives. They will not be penalized in any way for the crimes of their boss.

I understand that part, his failure to remit taxes. However, it is not clear on whether he actually collected those taxes from his employees. The articles say he did not, that he failed to collect as well. But then again it may just be sematics on that part. I would just like some evidence that he either did not collect and the employees knew he was not collecting or Hart messed with their paychecks so the employees thought taxes were being withheld. That is the part that is not clear from the articles.

It's just semantics. The employer doesn't actually "collect" payroll withholdings from employees. The employee gets a paycheck for $1,000 (using very round numbers here), which is a net amount. The employee's gross pay is $1,500. $500 is withheld for FICA/Medicare/Federal Withholding/State Withholding by the employer, who issues a check for $1,000. The employer has the responsibility to remit those withholdings. In this case, the employer just kept the money and now he will go to prison for that.

Or Hart could have issued a check to the employee for $1500 instead of their net amount of $1000. In essence not withholding. That is the part that is not clear. I don't know what the tax code says in regards to that but I do know I've seem some even more obviously incorrect accounting practices with surprising results.

[JohnnyD 0]

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Or Hart could have issued a check to the employee for $1500 instead of their net amount of $1000. In essence not withholding. That is the part that is not clear. I don't know what the tax code says in regards to that but I do know I've seem some even more obviously incorrect accounting practices with surprising results.

That would be a case of improperly classifying employees as independent contractors. According to the newspaper articles, that is not what was happening.

ETA: Your profile says you are a CPA. How in the world you you need this to be explained to you?

[davelepka 4]

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I would just like some evidence that he either did not collect and the employees knew he was not collecting or Hart messed with their paychecks so the employees thought taxes were being withheld. That is the part that is not clear from the articles.

I think it's clear from the situation that the deductions were made, and that the employees were led to believe that this was the case. That's the reason that the IRS went after Hart and not the employees.

If the deductions were never made, then Hart would have paid the money out to the employees, and it would fall on the employees to pay the taxes. If that was the case, Hart simply would have produced employment contracts showing the rate of pay, and paycheck stubs showing that 100% of that pay was remitted to the employees.

If the deductions were made, and the monies never paid to the IRS, then the IRS could simply pull tax returns from the employees showing that deductions had been made, and then demand proof that Hart did indeed remit payment to the IRS with those deductions. In the absence of proof of payment, they have a case against the guy.

Seeing as he was charged and sentenced, you tell me which way you think it went.

[tetra316 0]

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I would just like some evidence that he either did not collect and the employees knew he was not collecting or Hart messed with their paychecks so the employees thought taxes were being withheld. That is the part that is not clear from the articles.

I think it's clear from the situation that the deductions were made, and that the employees were led to believe that this was the case. That's the reason that the IRS went after Hart and not the employees.

If the deductions were never made, then Hart would have paid the money out to the employees, and it would fall on the employees to pay the taxes. If that was the case, Hart simply would have produced employment contracts showing the rate of pay, and paycheck stubs showing that 100% of that pay was remitted to the employees.

If the deductions were made, and the monies never paid to the IRS, then the IRS could simply pull tax returns from the employees showing that deductions had been made, and then demand proof that Hart did indeed remit payment to the IRS with those deductions. In the absence of proof of payment, they have a case against the guy.

Seeing as he was charged and sentenced, you tell me which way you think it went.

All I'm saying is it is NOT clear that the deductions were made. The articles all say he failed to COLLECT. In that case his employees would be 1099 employees and he would still be in trouble for failing to collect taxes. The classification of employees falls on the employer as well as the employee. Not just the employee.

We all know how the media likes to sensationalize, so maybe in order to sensationalize they left out the part about investigations into the employees.

It does seem likely he just didn't remit but if that is the case why do all the articles also say he failed to COLLECT? I just find this an interesting case. And no one has presented any evidence yet that e did indeed collect.

[riggerpaul 1]

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It does seem likely he just didn't remit but if that is the case why do all the articles also say he failed to COLLECT? I just find this an interesting case. And no one has presented any evidence yet that e did indeed collect.

A business with employees does not collect payroll taxes, it withholds them.

There is never any collection. A collection implies a debt, and the employees have no debt to the employer.

So the news reports are inaccurate to start with.

Had they said that he failed to withhold the payroll taxes, that would be a different story.

But no business ever collects payroll taxes. Saying that he failed to collect them is a non-statement.

[Southern_Man 0]

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All I'm saying is it is NOT clear that the deductions were made. The articles all say he failed to COLLECT. In that case his employees would be 1099 employees and he would still be in trouble for failing to collect taxes. The classification of employees falls on the employer as well as the employee. Not just the employee.

We all know how the media likes to sensationalize, so maybe in order to sensationalize they left out the part about investigations into the employees.

It does seem likely he just didn't remit but if that is the case why do all the articles also say he failed to COLLECT? I just find this an interesting case. And no one has presented any evidence yet that e did indeed collect.

It would not be a case of having 1099 contractors. He was not telling the IRS he had 1099 contractors and paying them everything and leaving them responsible for their own taxes (properly or improperly). He was classifying them as employees.

There is no actual collecting to be done. The only collecting he would be doing would be from himself. He is not giving that money to employees then taking it back (although in the accounting he is). He is simply giving the employees their net pay. Then he is not sending the IRS what he owes them. That is a failure to "collect and remit"--i.e. it is a complete phrase.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[pchapman 261]

So we have a lot of theories but little real data -- we really need court documents etc and not short media articles.

We've seen it argued that he might have "collected" no taxes and passed everything on to the employees, or he might have collected all the taxes and not passed them on to the government.

Another theory is one in between:
He collected some taxes etc (so employees would see deductions on their paychecks and think all is OK), but wasn't collecting enough, and passed that too small amount to the gov't. All the rules on taxes & deductions at federal and state level can't be simple, and maybe even misinterpreted, so one could envision a company making a mistake.

I have no idea which theory is right, whether the errors were inadvertent or deliberate, but I think that's another possibility to consider.

[tetra316 0]

Ok, ok, I give up I guess I'm just over analyzing the wording in the articles.

[JohnnyD 0]

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So we have a lot of theories but little real data -- we really need court documents etc and not short media articles.

We've seen it argued that he might have "collected" no taxes and passed everything on to the employees, or he might have collected all the taxes and not passed them on to the government.

Another theory is one in between:
He collected some taxes etc (so employees would see deductions on their paychecks and think all is OK), but wasn't collecting enough, and passed that too small amount to the gov't. All the rules on taxes & deductions at federal and state level can't be simple, and maybe even misinterpreted, so one could envision a company making a mistake.

I have no idea which theory is right, whether the errors were inadvertent or deliberate, but I think that's another possibility to consider.

This is definitive and a direct quote.
http://www.middletownjournal.com/news/middletown-news/team-fastrax-owner-accused-of-failing-to-pay-taxes-583379.html

[tetra316 0]

Ok, I take that back! Here is a summarized court doc. It states he failed to "WITHHOLD money form employees' checks." So his employees were getting paid more than they should have. Hart also used corporate funds to fund skydiving, which is a separate issue not related to the taxes. He didn't withold taxes so none were used to pay for skydiving.

The interesting part is the last quote "As a result of these actions, SMS employees were not credited with the taxes that were supposed to have been applied". That seems to imply witholding but not crediting. But the document clearly says he failed to WITHHOLD. Interesting.

[JohnnyD 0]

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Ok, I take that back! Here is a summarized court doc. It states he failed to "WITHHOLD money form employees' checks." So his employees were getting paid more than they should have. Hart also used corporate funds to fund skydiving, which is a separate issue not related to the taxes. He didn't withold taxes so none were used to pay for skydiving.

The interesting part is the last quote "As a result of these actions, SMS employees were not credited with the taxes that were supposed to have been applied". That seems to imply witholding but not crediting. But the document clearly says he failed to WITHHOLD. Interesting.

The employees weren't credited because the PRT returns weren't filed.