kallend 1,623
QuoteQuoteQuoteIIRC the original Birdman sylabus clearly instructed wingsuiters to exit the a/c fully open and delta'd out. How many of the highly experienced wingsuiters were originally taught through that program? I don't know. But it's worth mentioning.
Completely wrong Kevin. I'm holding the birdman classic manual from before the skyflyers came out and I took the course with jari and and Kim. The exit is exactly the same as what SPOT taught you. Although in his diagrams and pictures Douglas drops down 25 - 30 feet before opening.
He has created nothing different just added to what was in place and removed the silly flat spin recovery foolishness and replaced it with instability procedures.
If you have any manual from any suit maker that states exit open I would really love to see it.
It might not have been Birdman. Spot showed me the document before the session started at the San Diego BOD meeting (and referenced it in that meeting). I'm sure of what I read, but I might have the document wrong. I'll ask him about it tomorrow when I get up there.
My first suit was a BM, and I learned on a borrowed BM Classic suit. None of the BM literature I have (from years ago) says to do anything other than to exit with wings CLOSED. And that is what my "BM Instructor" taught.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
normiss 622
So when did it stop being the norm, as exposed in youtube videos showing first flight students, and experienced flyers exiting and going to an open wing immediately?
Matt
So, start being safe, first!!!
normiss 622
Depends on one's interpretation of "standard".
I did see a manufacturer's WSI given to someone once simply because that person was purportedly good at anal sex.
Personally, I hope that's not how the program is rolled out.
QuoteYes the title of the thread was written not for fact but for attention, he got ours.....
Hmmm?? I have no dog in this fight. I've been following this issue very closely because my son is flying wing suits. I just really want to see this issue discussed honestly without the usual bullying and BS. I know it’s easy to spin the facts, hell, just look at the current Presidential election. I just think most of us (and I believe the OP sees this) are smart enough to know better.
If you (or anyone) want my support, argue your case honestly!!! Present the facts as you know them and be prepared to back up your statements. We’re skydivers, not politicians. Spin… that’s something your wash machine does to dry clothes.
"Son, only two things fall from the sky."
billvon 2,400
>when did it stop being the norm . . .
When wingsuiting got big enough that new "local experts" started making their voices heard.
Personally, if WSing goes away it harms me not. I am just trying to help keep friends alive and enjoying the aspect of the sport they like.
But we Skydivers tend to be our own worst enemy. Tails Strikes happen, the Insurance folks don't like it, flying beyond the two nautical mile radius happens (with more than WS's yes) and GA Pilots complain, the FAA doesn't like that.
Maybe once we have the calm rational adult conversations, we compromise on a Set of Standards, no Rating, and unify ourselves in front of the Insurance Co's and the FAA. Hopefully in the end, saving not only WSing, but Skydiving as well.
Matt
So, start being safe, first!!!
Ron 7
QuoteWhat better way to implement & oversee a standardized curriculum than to have the sport's governing organization, with the tools already in place, do it?
There is not a WS instructor system in place.
We do have BSR's already in place, why not use them instead of creating a bunch of new crap?
normiss 622
QuoteBecause what is currently in place isn't always working
I see that you're responding to Ron's comment about BSRs, but your comment applies to the current WS-I and instructional programs. None of it is working to the level that we need (one that will satisfy the insurance company), and the proof is the problem with tail strikes.
So there are manufacturer programs and instructional ratings in place that have been around for years? Great, but we still had a tail strike every 29 days last year, so those programs aren't working.
Again, everyone can argue back and forth about what 'might' work, and what the problem 'might' be, but in the meantime, inaction can and will lead to no action for anyone with a wingsuit.
Before the insurance company launched a warning shot across our bow, there was one camp saying we needed more structure, more training, and the USPA in order to move forward, and another camp that felt the status quo was fine, and at that time, that was OK. There was no impending problems or restrictions on the horizon, there were simply possible problems and those were all being cited by the pro-USPA crowd (big surprise).
Things have changed significantly. Now the term 'do or die' has come to play, and I don't mean die as in the end of a life, I mean die as in the end of wingsuiting in the US. The tactic now should be to use anything and everything we can think of in order to end the problem and keep the insurance company happy. Like it or not, wingsuiting is not 'too big to fail', so you can either bicker back and forth about what 'should' work, and what 'should' be done, just do it all and hope that it's enough.
Short of that, kudos for making the 100 way happen, as that might be the last wingsuit record set in this country. In a throwback to the DZ.com days of yore, that record got in 'before the lock'.
Ron 7
QuoteBecause what is currently in place isn't always working.
We already have a single USPA approved method for a wingsuit leaving a side door? Can you show me where it is?
So again, if we have not even tried the easy things yet.... Why create a potential boondoggle that not even wingsuiters can agree as a good thing?
normiss 622
billvon 2,400
>Can you show me where it is?
Avoiding Tail Strikes
(1) Students should be informed of the danger of collision with the tail of the aircraft if they open their wings immediately upon exit.
(2) Students should demonstrate a two-second delay between exit and opening of their wings.
(3) Instruct the student to open wings after clearing the tail of the aircraft.
. . . .
Climb Out and Exit
a. Climb out or set up in door, breathe and prepare to exit as per Coach instruction.
b. The Coach should observe the exit to evaluate:
(1) the students’ stability; and
(2) that the student delayed opening their wings as instructed to avoid the horizontal stabilizer.
QuoteQuoteWhat better way to implement & oversee a standardized curriculum than to have the sport's governing organization, with the tools already in place, do it?
There is not a WS instructor system in place.
We do have BSR's already in place, why not use them instead of creating a bunch of new crap?
No I understand that Ron, what I'm saying is there is a template in place...as far as all the other standardized forms of instruction.
Any yes I also understand the argument WS is an 'advanced' discipline and no other advanced areas have it...I still maintain that's no reason 'not' to have the system in place.
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
Ron 7
QuoteOne of those things is not like the other.
Yes, your argument does not match the facts.
Ron 7
Ron 7
QuoteQuoteQuoteWhat better way to implement & oversee a standardized curriculum than to have the sport's governing organization, with the tools already in place, do it?
There is not a WS instructor system in place.
We do have BSR's already in place, why not use them instead of creating a bunch of new crap?
No I understand that Ron, what I'm saying is there is a template in place...as far as all the other standardized forms of instruction.
Any yes I also understand the argument WS is an 'advanced' discipline and no other advanced areas have it...I still maintain that's no reason 'not' to have the system in place.
And it is not a reason to do it either.
billvon 2,400
By teaching what is currently in the SIM. Most people don't know it's there. Heck, you're an instructor and you didn't know it was there.
kevin I actually hold your integrity quite high ( so far) . I don't think you would lie about this document, I believe you when you say you read it. I use your name so people don't accuse me of making a false account to have this banter, your account profile is not filled out but you are a real person.
But I know this if I would have been shown this document, as you say, a factory wingsuit instruction manual that states exiting in an open arms configuration I would be very suspicious of its origins. Like I said before I've owned every major brand of suit, none of the minors like mortis and Alien, read a lot of manuals. Well all of them. And like any hungry WS pilot most of the materials available on factory web pages yet I've never come across exit open methodology.
I know you are not lying about what was shown to you and later the BOD. Furthermore I am not telling anyone what to believe in terms of what was fabricated or who is stupid or daring enough to prey on the stupid.
I simply stated I'm not surprised.