USPA Coach Requirements

[popsjumper 2]

Read the results of the poll. I don't think things have changed much. If they have, they've gotten more strict.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[devildog 0]

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I know Uspa is talking about it. I feel the Requirements are way to low at this time. My feelings are at a 100 jumps you are still focused on your own flying where as a coach you need to be focused on the students flying. What does everyone else feel?

When I was nearing 100, I wanted to get my rating ASAP. For a variety of reasons, I didn't until I was almost at 200 (mostly because I jump at a small dz, and lining up a time where I could get my FJC teaching portion done was getting in the way). I'm glad I ended up waiting longer. I was a good jumper at my jump number, but I certainly wasn't so good that flying was second nature enough that I could focus the majority of my attention on a student to a degree that was both useful and safe for both of us. And of course, I don't think it's *just* about the jump numbers. With jump numbers comes time in the sport, and with that time comes talking to others, learning from others, seeing and reading about accidents first hand, etc. Tunnel time can certainly teach you to guide your body against an airflow, but that's just a small portion of what goes into a skydive.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[RyanFYF 0]

I think wind tunnel training should account for something too when looking at qualification requirements. Some one with 200 jumps might not fly NEARLY as good as someone with 100 jumps and 2 hours of wind tunnel time

[faulk04 0]

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If you can prove that you can do the job you should get the rating. If you can't, you shouldn't. Period.

I agree with this.

I haven't been jumping for that long but I feel like there is nothing wrong with being able to get a coach rating at 100 jumps.

I put in on the evaluators on rather or not that person in his course is able to complete the course in a satisfactory manner.

Some people are ready to be a coach at 100 jumps and some aren't, pretty much like everything else in life. (This saying would be true if the minimum requirements were raised).


I got my coach rating around 150 jumps and I will say I was challenged during my course and my evaluator had no problem telling people if they should or should not be in the course after the 1st jump.

I hate the argument that in order to be a coach, one should jump with a camera to debrief them fully so it needs to be raised to 200 jump min for a coach.

Coaching without a camera makes the coach really focus in on the student during the dive in order to give them a proper debrief on the skydive. It is very easy to just use a camera, get down and watch the video to see what they did wrong or right

Having the use of a camera is a great tool to have, but it is not needed in my opinion.

[Granimal 0]

While most people like to talk about jump numbers, most also neglect to mention that the rating also requires a skill demonstration to get the rating.

It looks like I am in the minority here, but I don't think that the jump number should be increased. If you can meet the skill requirement, then you should get the rating. If the general consensus is that people are getting a coach rating who are not ready, the solution is to increase the air skill and teaching requirements. The skill demonstration should be hard, but within reason.

I give very little weight to jump numbers. Most of us have stories about the skydiver with thousands of jumps that is just plain dangerous and the new skydiver who is quite good. Last week I saw an 18 year old jumper with around 300 jumps attempt a two point 222 way.

When someone I don't know tells me they have 200 jumps, I basically think "well, they managed to not kill themselves 200 times, so lets see how they do in the air."

[djmarvin 2]

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I think wind tunnel training should account for something too when looking at qualification requirements. Some one with 200 jumps might not fly NEARLY as good as someone with 100 jumps and 2 hours of wind tunnel time

Tunnel does tons for freefall skills but nothing for canopy skills. The most important thing we can do on every skydive is land safely. I think part of the jump requirement brings seasoning as a canopy pilot.

I personally recommend 200 jumps and at least 100 FS (rw for the old school) prior to attending a USPA Coach Course. The more you go in with, the more you are likely to take away. That being said I have had numerous candidates with just over 100 jumps (Faulk04 being one of them) and have seen a lot of success. If the Examiners in the field are doing their job then those with the minimum numbers but not the minimum skills should be easily weeded out.

DJ Marvin
AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E
http://www.theratingscenter.com

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I just hit 100 jumps (And a good bit over an hour of wind tunnel time) and I feel like any instruction coming from me would be half-assed at best. I'll probably start it at some point because I think helping new skydivers learn would be fun, but I'll know when I'm ready. Might be 150 jumps. Might be 300. Might be even more than that.

I've spent a lot of time in the wind tunnel, and felt like I was being pulled in a headlong rush toward freeflying. I told my instructor I wanted rock solid belly skills before going too far down that road, so the majority of the time I'm spending in there is on belly exercises. I am working on backflying and am starting to feel comfortable with it, but I'm taking this at my own pace. I feel like I would have missed a lot of really cool stuff if I'd gone with just enough back flying to bail to my back in an emergency and then moved on to sit flying.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[popsjumper 2]

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I can't speak for anyone else, but I just hit 100 jumps (And a good bit over an hour of wind tunnel time) and I feel like any instruction coming from me would be half-assed at best. I'll probably start it at some point because I think helping new skydivers learn would be fun, but I'll know when I'm ready. Might be 150 jumps. Might be 300. Might be even more than that.

See that ^^^^^ everyone?
Here's somebody that can give himself an honest evaluation. Rare these days of "Iwannaratingatthe cheapestpossiblerequirement!"

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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I hate the argument that in order to be a coach, one should jump with a camera to debrief them fully so it needs to be raised to 200 jump min for a coach.

Whoever said that needs to do some serious thinking.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Tunnel does tons for freefall skills...

....except staying close to an out-of-whack student skills
....except observation skills
....except debrief skills
....except teaching skills
....except book knowledge
....and more

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If the Examiners in the field are doing their job then those with the minimum numbers but not the minimum skills should be easily weeded out.

...and therein lies a major problem.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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I think wind tunnel training should account for something too when looking at qualification requirements. Some one with 200 jumps might not fly NEARLY as good as someone with 100 jumps and 2 hours of wind tunnel time

What should tunnel time account for? Hours of freefall?
You do realize of course that tunnel and freefall are two totally different worlds. You sphere of awareness is very small in the tunnel. Compare that with freefall needs. The only commonality is air blowing by you.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[JohnMitchell 14]

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You do realize of course that tunnel and freefall are two totally different worlds. You sphere of awareness is very small in the tunnel. Compare that with freefall needs. The only commonality is air blowing by you.

I know what you're saying, Andy, but I still think tunnel time is HUGE. I've trained tunnel rats to skydive, and their stick-and-rudder skills (to borrow a pilot term) were off the chart. That left so much more time for training exits, procedures, altitude awareness, canopy control, etc. I've had no problems caused by students with tunnel time.

In fact, I was just in the tunnel last weekend getting some coaching on my side slides.

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

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You do realize of course that tunnel and freefall are two totally different worlds. You sphere of awareness is very small in the tunnel. Compare that with freefall needs. The only commonality is air blowing by you.

I know what you're saying, Andy, but I still think tunnel time is HUGE. I've trained tunnel rats to skydive, and their stick-and-rudder skills (to borrow a pilot term) were off the chart. That left so much more time for training exits, procedures, altitude awareness, canopy control, etc. I've had no problems caused by students with tunnel time.

In fact, I was just in the tunnel last weekend getting some coaching on my side slides.

I agree; the tunnel forces you to learn to stay in one place. For a newbie like me who might not be aware of backsliding (in particular) this is a tremendous advantage. I was watching a VERY experienced skydiver I know practicing his transitions in there the other day and even though his control is amazing compared to mine, you can see a clear difference between even his ability and his instructor's. Five or ten minutes in the tunnel might not go a long way toward freefall skills, but a guy with a couple thousand hours in there will fly rings around all of us on the way down (And then open up a gigantic granny-panties canopy when it comes time to pull heh heh heh.)

I think even a few minutes in there will help with the sensory overload of those early AFF jumps. It doesn't teach you altitude control or canopy skills, no, but at the very least you're not like "Oh my God how do I stay upright?!" while trying to remain focused on paying attention to your altimeter and stuff. Everyone I've taken down there is able to stay upright and stable in just a few minutes of practice. It won't guarantee you an error-free AFF, but it might save you a repeat or two. It was at least enough that my instructors noticed a difference in my freefall, which I think is pretty big at that stage of the game.

Of course, I'm a computer programmer and just view the brain as a computer made of meat. A meatputer. It's massively parallel, but it's easy to overwhelm. I think breaking out the individual components of a complex experience like this and letting the meatputer digest them one at a time is helpful. You wouldn't ask a first grader to do long division on his first day; it's a new and complex task he's got to work up to. Historically it's hard to break up a skydive into its individual components, and you can tell that AFF is structured to try to prevent information overload. If you already know how to control your body while falling, you can devote your meatputer's attention to other things. Like paying attention to the altimeter.

Funnily enough it still feels weird to step into the tunnel with all my gear on but no rig. I kind of feel naked without it, with my jumpsuit and goggles on.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[JohnMitchell 14]

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I agree; the tunnel forces you to learn to stay in one place.

I've heard the horror stories of very "experienced" skydivers that toss around like popcorn in an air popper when they go in the tunnel. If you can't hold still in the tunnel, you can't do it on a RW jump either, and I'd prefer you not F-up my dive.

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Five or ten minutes in the tunnel might not go a long way toward freefall skills,

I think even that short amount of time is HUGE for a beginning AFF student. It's like knowing how to ride a bicycle before you take motorcycle lessons. I wish all students could have tunnel time first.

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I think even a few minutes in there will help with the sensory overload of those early AFF jumps. It doesn't teach you altitude control or canopy skills, no, but at the very least you're not like "Oh my God how do I stay upright?!" while trying to remain focused on paying attention to your altimeter and stuff.

If you already know how to control your body while falling, you can devote your meatputer's attention to other things. Like paying attention to the altimeter.

Totally 100% right.

I learned the hard way. My son learned the easy way. I wish they had had tunnels when I was a teen (not just dinosaurs and wooly mammoths.)

[popsjumper 2]

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I know what you're saying, Andy, but I still think tunnel time is HUGE.

...yes, I agree that it is....if no other reason than the one you mentioned. The question revolved around tunnel time for ratings. Again, all those skills have to be learned in the air.

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I've trained tunnel rats to skydive,

There ya' go...yuu had to train them on things that a skydiver already knows...without tunnel time.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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I agree; the tunnel forces you to learn to stay in one place.

True enough in itself. Not a lot of Coach work to be done staying in place other than simple docking skills. Most of it is moving....tracking, fall-rate, turning...all the while staying with your student be they still or moving themselves.

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I think even a few minutes in there will help with the sensory overload of those early AFF jumps.

That's nice for student...we're talking Coaches.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[skyjumpenfool 2]

There's a performace element to the coach rating. At least, there is supose to be? I'd think some tunnel time would make it easier to "perform" the necessary skills. I'd also guess a tunnel rat could not pass based on tunnel experience alone.

Either way, if the candidate can pass the tests, they are a coach!!!! That sould be the ruler for success, not the method in which they gained the skills.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[popsjumper 2]

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Either way, if the candidate can pass the tests, they are a coach!!!! That should be the ruler for success.

And it is! As it always will be.
As has already been noted in this thread, I'm sure...some skills you cannot learn in the tunnel.

How can you teach:
-canopy work
-landing techniques
-exits
-tracking
-anything in the air if you can't stay near that slipping and sliding student
-diving and docking
....just to name a few.

Ya' gotta have good freefall experience....plain and simple.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[bodewah 0]

Guys... all these numbers mean nothing.. I've known 75 jump skydivers who were ready for wing suiting, and i've knows 1000 jump skydivers who shouldn't even look in a wing suits general direction... what we really need is accountable instructor examiner programs. Better-stricter examinations, make better instructors, make better students, that will quickly progress to become coaches (under the supervision of an instructor) at 100 jumps and be good at it.