Stunts; pissing on our sport to make money.

[TheGerman 0]

Wow Bill, you've got it! That's much better than I could have explained it.

You must see our small action movie when it's complete and you will remember what you wrote today.

Andi

[MakeItHappen 15]

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....
Well, in doing a chuteless jump, man has been able to fly a directional flight, without plane, without wings, without a motor, and then they said, NOW a man has flown like the birds, in a directional flight, albeit, to pick up some landing gear, but it was just a man, using his arms and legs, and flying like the birds, without any other device.

That, to me, is the act of flight...which is what man has always wanted to do since day one.

So Bill (and Andi) I was privy to a conversation...
It went like this.

Ma Eagle: What are those people doing?
Pa Eagle: They are trying to 'Fly like an Eagle'
Ma Eagle: They look more like turkeys and chickens.
Pa Eagle: Yeah - they just don't know that the 'can you land it that way' is what flying is all about.
Ma Eagle: Go figure - they think that falling and redirecting your self is all there is to flying.
Pa Eagle: Guess they don't see the 'stop before you impact' part of flight.
Ma Eagle: so you think that crazy human with the WS will be able to land safely?
Pa Eagle: Not a chance, they don't have the proper aerodynamics.
Ma Eagle: Yeah - they'll probably make some slope to accommodate their trajectory. That's cheating- not really flying.
Pa Eagle: Yeah, when they cheat the landing they will all cry out 'Now THAT'S what flying is'.
Ma Eagle: If they only knew the truth....

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[diablopilot 2]

Or as Douglas Adams says in The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy "The knack of flying is to throw youreslf at the ground and miss."

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[catfishhunter 1]

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>Apples and Oranges. Race was not a Proffessional Stuntman.

No argument there. But the people defending Race used EXACTLY the same rationale you are using. He was a ski jumper! He knew how to fly! He was an extreme guy with fast reflexes! The rules certainly don't apply to HIM.

Now you have a reason why rules shouldn't apply to stuntmen. Next week it will be that rules shouldn't apply to NASCAR drivers because they are professionals and go faster than skydivers. But you know what? The ground doesn't care how many stunts you have done or how fast you drive. It will kill you just as dead no matter how extreme you are.

>trying to pound your square peg into a round hole just doesn't work.

And trying to justify why the rules/guidelines should apply to everyone else and not you has depressingly similar results.

Awww come on Bill your way more intelligent then that. Jump numbers where and are an issue with race. there are standards for wingsuit flying and he wasn't close to any of them. There are NO STANDARDS for this STUNT except being able to get stable and hold still and 250 skydives and 100 base jumps and MANY practice Jumps with rig. and having 3 world Class(2 World record Holders) on the jump with him made him more the qualified to make this jump. Jump numbers have NOTHING to do with this and if you step back away from your feelings on Race going in and look at this for what it is you will see it for what it is. A very well planned and executed STUNT. My only issues is the jump number arguements. BSR's, Far's etc is up to the Authority's and if they get busted and it is proved they did something wrong then all involved should accept the outcome. But jump numbers do not play a part in this. This is not the place to beat that drum but that doesn't mean I don't think that drum shouldn't be beaten.

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[skybytch 259]

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Also, in front of students I never even discuss breaking the rules until I know them well and can have a discussion about the bigger picture ethics and politics in our sport.

Students read these forums. Your profile identifies you as an AFF instructor. Doesn't matter if they know you or not, what you say here WILL be taken by some to be gospel.

[tdog 0]

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Students read these forums. Your profile identifies you as an AFF instructor. Doesn't matter if they know you or not, what you say here WILL be taken by some to be gospel.

If they believe what I say as gospel because of some rating or jump number or job title or anything - then their instructors did not do a good enough job teaching them how to learn and who to believe. This is the first thing I teach students once I am convinced they are to stay in this sport. I had two guys at my house into 4 in the morning last week, showing videos, answering questions, and discussing how to learn.

If I had a student who asked, "tell me about jumping a BASE rig from an aircraft" or "tell me about going thru a cloud on purpose", the conversation I would have with them would not be too far from what I said in these forums. I would want them to see the damage that could be caused to the community, and hopefully they would understand how careful you have to be when you intentionally break the rules. I would also be very clear that my opinions are my opinions, and that I do not represent the USPA or their opinions, especially in candid conversations about the ethical details of decision making.

[skypuppy 1]

I have also heard stories that Patrick DeGayren (sp) did some post-exit hook ups with someone that was the chuteless-dummy. They supposedly did a handful of them, until on the last attempt, Patrick could not hook up with the guy. The chuteless one went in. I think these took place in France.
__________________________________________________

It's not true that they couldn't get together. My understanding is that the hook-ups all went ok. The canopy they used was similar to some sort of freebagged reserve chute.

On the last one, the fellow (I seem to recall his name was Alain something) had a lineover, or some sort of mal, that was not surviveable without a reserve. This was at an airshow.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[zopapito 0]

Puerto Rico is a US territory, therefore all aviation regulations are the same as in the US. They are regulated by the FAA the same as any state in the Continental US. So I don't know what you mean by checking local regulations.

[leewilcox 0]

Are these the two essential arguments of the original post of this thread?

1) Isolated, compensated, publicized, "unlawful" skydiving stunts with a published video/photo record harm the sport of skydiving.
2) Repeated, gratis, undocumented, "unlawful" skydives without published video/photo record do not harm the sport of skydiving.

Harm to the sport of skydiving is defined as arbitrary retaliatory FAA actions toward lawful skydiving operations in the US.

"Nothing exists except atoms and empty space; everything else is opinion" - Democritus

[bch7773 0]

i agree it was a stunt, and thats what it is.

the FAA may or may not punish those involved, but i can't see them punishing EVERYONE in the sport because of this.

enjoy the stunt, its not much different from the other stunts done in skydiving to get attention. i wanna see the video.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[tdog 0]

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Are these the two essential arguments of the original post of this thread?

1) Isolated, compensated, publicized, "unlawful" skydiving stunts with a published video/photo record harm the sport of skydiving.

Yes.

Quote

2) Repeated, gratis, undocumented, "unlawful" skydives without published video/photo record do not harm the sport of skydiving.

No... These can harm our sport too, however, are less likely to do so. My premise was more, "if you choose to intentionally break an FAR, and we all do sometimes to some degree, don't brag about it."

[tdog 0]

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the FAA may or may not punish those involved, but i can't see them punishing EVERYONE in the sport because of this.

You might be right... However I know my office manager, who has seen my progression in the sport from being a student to an instructor, and watches my skydiving and base jumping videos, has a hard time differentiating between what is a stunt and what is a normal skydive. To her, any skydive is a stunt. To the FAA, we are all skydivers.

Punish vs respect....

I agree the FAA is not going to pull the military style of punishment and make us all do pushups, and ground us for a week, because of one of our peer's actions...

However, the FAA, especially some individuals within the organization, could get a negative bias towards our activities. Next time someone tries to get approval for a difficult demo jump, or a modification to an aircraft, or a modification to a standard flight plan, the FAA rep could give the request less than 100% of their attention and just deny it, because of their lack of respect - or because they are fearful their approval will backfire and their bosses will question why they made the approval.

[chuteless 1]

RE:Your bit about the two eagles commenting on man in flight:

My dad tied a pair of chicken wings onto his arms when he was about 10 years old (1896) and jumped
from a fence. He landed in a pile of horse manure, and decided flying wasn't for him.

I guess it is in my genes.

[billvon 2,447]

>Jump numbers where and are an issue with race.

Why? He was an EXPERT (per his supporters) ski jumper, and that's just like wingsuiting (again, per his supporters.)

>There are NO STANDARDS for this STUNT . . .

Just as there are NO STANDARDS for doing a 400-way. Doesn't make it a good idea for someone with 250 jumps.

> Jump numbers have NOTHING to do with this . . . .

"Hello, Mr. Smith! We're going to start your eye surgery soon. Your surgeon will be Mr. Engles. He hasn't done this surgery very much before, but don't worry! He finished several years of medical school. He's a professional poker player, so we know for sure that he can quickly evaluate risks and is cool under pressure. He's also a painter, so we know he's good with his hands. Experience as a surgeon has NOTHING to do with his skills as a surgeon, so you'll be fine."

Experience (and training) really does matter.

[kelpdiver 2]

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> Jump numbers have NOTHING to do with this . . . .

"Hello, Mr. Smith! We're going to start your eye surgery soon. Your surgeon will be Mr. Engles. He hasn't done this surgery very much before, but don't worry! He finished several years of medical school. He's a professional poker player, so we know for sure that he can quickly evaluate risks and is cool under pressure. He's also a painter, so we know he's good with his hands. Experience as a surgeon has NOTHING to do with his skills as a surgeon, so you'll be fine."

Experience (and training) really does matter.

Enough of this crap - he was basically doing a two way link up. Students have to do this before they get their A license.

The key differences: 1) no jump suit and he's a beefy build, so faster fall rates and less easy control and 2) if you fail, you die. But there's no comparison to a poker player operating, or the overall skills needed to do world record big ways where someone else's life is at risk.

[catfishhunter 1]

Sigh...I never agreed with nor wil I ever agree that jumping a wingsuit with 100 jumps is OK. What others said has nothing to do with me nor this thread.

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Experience (and training) really does matter.

And thats my point. Travis does have the experiance AND training for this stunt. If you can't get stable and hold still in 250 jumps and 100 basejumps he would have been dead a long time ago and I guess you still haven't read the part that they trained for this jump with rigs before ever trying it sans rig. I trust what you have to say on nearly everything you have said about jumping out of airplanes but your logic or lack thereof on this particular stunt has me scratching my head. It's like the Captain who is going to go down with the ship no matter what when all he would have to do is step off into the life boat

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[billvon 2,447]

>Enough of this crap - he was basically doing a two way link up.

That's all a level 4 is, too. But we don't let people with 250 jumps do a level 4 with their buddies. Even if they are professional NASCAR drivers.

The skill here is not just "do a two way." A regular two way does not result in guaranteed death if something goes awry. It is basically trusting your life to your ability to dock (and control) someone else.

Fortunately, there is a rating that trains you to do just this - the AFF rating. AFF JM's are risking the life of the student (to a lesser degree, of course) if they cannot dock, and thus the ability to dock on someone NO MATTER WHAT is trained and tested. A professional would get an AFF rating, do a bunch of jumps with real students (who are NOT like evaluators) and then practice for this jump. That's what professionals do.

[catfishhunter 1]

umm he was the dock'e. Did you read the story? Plamer docked on him. His Job was get out get stable. Haven't seen the Video or read what Timmy's Job was but sure it had to be a Back Up plan of sorts. I only know Plamer as being a TI and Tunnel coach not sure if he has his AFFI.

So he went out and got some of the best guys in the world. Went and made a bunch of Traning jumps to make sure it would work then went and did it for real. Sounds pretty proffessional. Travis having an AFF rating wouldn't make a lick of difference being he was the Target for Plamer. Bill please go read how the whole thing went down. I think you got somthings mixed up

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[diablopilot 2]

Gosh Bill, now they are going to say you're tooting your own horn.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[skybytch 259]

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The skill here is not just "do a two way." A regular two way does not result in guaranteed death if something goes awry. It is basically trusting your life to your ability to dock (and control) someone else.

According to this article, all he had to do was be stable. The other jumpers did the hard part.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Quote

The skill here is not just "do a two way." A regular two way does not result in guaranteed death if something goes awry. It is basically trusting your life to your ability to dock (and control) someone else.

According to this article, all he had to do was be stable. The other jumpers did the hard part.

I submit to you that the hard part was psychological.

[yeyo 1]

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I submit to you that the hard part was psychological.

yeah, thats what i tried to say a few post back

HISPA #93
DS #419.5

[skybytch 259]

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I submit to you that the hard part was psychological.

Revised - the other jumpers did the hard flying.

[billvon 2,447]

>Did you read the story?

Yes. One person chasing him, trained to do so, is relatively safe. You could probably pull it off 99 times out of 100. TWO people, both trained to dock and stabilize the other no matter what, is safer, and the professional way to do it.

>Sounds pretty proffessional.

Professionals do the work needed.

A friend of mine once applied for a slot on the 300-way. She had just under 300 jumps at the time. The organizer told her "I'm not sure. The limit is 500 jumps. We can waive that, but . . ."

At that point she could have:

1) Written back and argued with the guy.

2) Gone out, made a few jumps with him, proved how good she was (she was amazing for under 300 jumps) and gotten on.

3) Used her looks.

4) Made 200 jumps and met the requirement.

She could have done the amateur route and argued with him, or tried to get around the 500 jumps. (After all, there is no 'official' requirement for jump numbers for doing a big-way.) Instead she made the 200 jumps, did well, and we got the record. That's what a professional does. They do the work.

>Travis having an AFF rating wouldn't make a lick of difference

Then I think you may not understand the AFF rating.

But anyway, I'm done. Believe whatever you like.

[LloydDobbler 2]

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Apples and Oranges. Race was not a Proffessional Stuntman. And that is my point your using the same Logic you used in his death and that logic is flawed when applied to this STUNT. Flying a wingsuit at 100 jumps and a handful of base jumps or extensivly planning and and practicing a stunt with VERY qualified people and a proffessional stunman with 250 skydives and 100 base jumps are NOT the same and you CANNOT use the same logic. And that is where your arguement loses credibillity. I do understand the jump number issue but it does not apply here and trying to pound your square peg into a round hole just doesn't work.

Okay, I realize I'm a little late to this here party, but I want to chime in anyway to clarify something:

You (and a number of others) have spent a lot of time calling lots and lots of attention to the fact that Travis is a "professional stuntman," with 100 B.A.S.E. jumps AND 250 skydives!!! And then you also mention comparing "apples to oranges."

I have basic skills of skydiving (120 jumps) and have never done BASE. I am, however, a member of the Screen Actors Guild (though not of the Stuntmen's Association), and have an intimate knowledge of the way things work on this side of the camera in the entertainment industry. I've worked in all mediums of media (film/TV/stage/commercial/V/O, you name it), *and* I've done a number of stunts myself in the course of my career. Here's the thing:

Being a "professional stuntman" only means that you've been paid to do a stunt. Don't get me wrong- it's quite an accomplishment, because there's a lot of competition. But saying someone can automatically do this because they're a "professional stuntman" is simply ridiculous. It has virtually no bearing. Let's say I have thousands of jumps, and have gotten paid to jump out of an airplane for a commercial here and there. That makes me a "professional stuntman." But that doesn't mean that I can drive a 1973 Shelby Mustang down the street at a pre-determined speed, execute a whip turn and crash it through a 10-foot wide section of a building (that's been replaced by balsa wood to lessen the impact), bringing it to a halt before hitting the bar 10 feet on the inside (behind which another "professional stuntman" is standing).

(I drive pretty well, but I'd need a lot more training for that one.) Just because I'm a "professional" at one stunt discipline doesn't have any bearing on how good I am at precision driving. Or skydiving with a Red Bull in my hand. Apples to oranges.

I guess my point is that the words "professional stuntman" are just that: words. For every stunt you see on TV, there's a stuntman who's done their hard time training to make it happen. Throwing the title around like it makes a difference here is uninformed of the realities of being a stunt performer. Anyone who's done it will tell you, "doing your homework" and prepping for a stunt is what makes you a real stuntman in that discipline. The training is where it's at.

So catfishhunter, I think you're basing your argument on false premises.

Now. That being said, I do think that this stunt was well-rehearsed (or at least, adequately-rehearsed). Billvon, earlier on you said this:

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No, the level that 200 jumps represents is not a big deal today, even though it was a big deal back then. Why? Because the high performance canopy in 1985 was a PD170. Because "freak flying" was on your back. Because being an instructor meant being able to hook up a SL and stay sorta near a student in freefall (once he got to freefall, that is.) Because wingsuiting was something that no one ever did. Because a "bigway" was 8 people.

And I think that pretty much says it all. If Travis was trying to do a chuteless head-down jump, I'm with you. Or a chuteless wingsuit jump? I'm in your corner, all the way. Chuteless big-way? You're spot-on.

But it used to be that 200 jumps meant you were expert-level at belly-flying. And at the time when it was that way, I know of at least 1 person who jumped chuteless with less jumps than it takes to currently get your D (in fact, he posted about it in this thread). So by those standards, Travis should have been good enough to make a stable belly jump, be docked on rodeo-style, and hold a stable arch long enough to be clipped in with a carabiner.

The very point of your post seems to be that the sport is a lot different now in a lot of disciplines, and overall the bar has been raised, so people need more than 200 jumps in order to meet the overall proficency level. But this guy wasn't doing the more advanced stuff. If he had done this back in the 70's, none of the new disciplines (or the improved proficiency of belly-flyers-in-general which led to, say, the 400-way) would have any effect on this. By his jump numbers, he would likely be considered qualified. (Crazy? Probably. But qualified.)

Personally, I think the whole thing is stupid. And if they broke laws/rules, I think the consequences should be applied to them (hopefully they won't hurt the rest of us). And 125 jumps from now, you can bet I won't be considering doing anything like it.

But then again, I don't have Red Bull coming at me with check in hand.

Regardless, seems he has enough proficiency to have done one of these jumps back in the day, so all things in a jump like this being the same, I think he's good enough to do it (well, obviously, he proved that). But the bit about him being a "professional stuntman", so it's okay? Please. (Apologies for the long-ass post. I've been lurking for too long, and it finally spilled over).

Signatures are the new black.