Tandem skydive vs. solo?

[kram88 0]

Hello guys, im new to skydiving. I've only jumped once but ever since I have jumped I am in love and hope one day to get my A license so i can jump solo and start jumping more frequently. Just a question though; I read on here someone say tandem is more dangerous than solo??? Why is that? I am going tandem again next monday. Also one of my buddies was saying that the teacher will cut you loose if something happens and you will die instead of him? Lol? I don't think that's right. Anyways. Im a noob... Im trying to do as much research as I can and learn more about the sport. Sorry if i come off like i dont know what im talking about because i prolly dont compared to most of you.. Anyways, Thx!

[Trev_S 0]

kram88

Hello guys, im new to skydiving. I've only jumped once but ever since I have jumped I am in love and hope one day to get my A license so i can jump solo and start jumping more frequently. Just a question though; I read on here someone say tandem is more dangerous than solo??? Why is that? I am going tandem again next monday and I just read an article about a student and teacher that died due to mal in Mississippi? They didn't even say if they attempted to pop reserve or not? Hm.. Also one of my buddies was saying that the teacher will cut you loose if something happens and you will die instead of him? Lol? I don't think that's right. Anyways. Im a noob... Im trying to do as much research as I can and learn more about the sport. Sorry if i come off like i dont know what im talking about because i prolly dont compared to most of you.. Anyways, Thx!

Regardless of whether tandems are more dangerous or not, would you really want to spend $200ish dollars per jump to be a sack of potatoes? Go do the first jump course and go from there :) If you think the risk is too high then you can always walk away.

[kram88 0]

Im not worried about dieing.. lol, yeah it would suck but i would rather die doing something i love than to not fully live my life to the fullest. I would go straight to getting my license but my dad isnt willing to pay for it and i cant get the cash until after i get out of college. So i will be doing tandems from time to time until i grad and go for my license. Was just curious as to why people say tandems are more dangerous than jumping solo..

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

I don't know that one is necessarily more dangerous than the other. At least not without seeing the numbers. A lot of tandem jumps get done each year and a lot of solo jumps get done each year. I don't know the per-capitas on them individually and haven't ever seen it broken down that way.

If something happens to your main, the TI will cut it (not you) away and deploy the reserve. If something goes wrong with that, you're BOTH gonna have a bad time. One way or another you're in it together. Malfunctions that lead to fatalities like that are very rare, but they do happen.

If cash is tight and you have a wind tunnel nearby, you maybe could just be a tunnel rat for a few years until you're in a better financial situation? The cost is usually less than half what freefall is, you don't have the huge pricetag for gear (jumpsuit, helmet, goggles, all you need!) and you can learn to fly your ass off in there.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

First off, there is no such thing as a "Student Cut Away."
It's a bad joke that is perpetuated by the ignorant and those with a sick sense of humor.

Ask to get a closer look and a better explanation of how the student is hooked to the instructor next time if you are really concerned. It's 4 very sturdy hooks that lock closed.

The only cutaway system is to get rid of a malfunctioning main canopy to prevent it from interfering with a deploying reserve.

Next: Is it more dangerous?

That depends on how you define "dangerous."
Tandem fatality rates are very, very low. From a purely numbers standpoint (accidents per jump) it's probably the safest way to jump. Nobody has any truly accurate numbers, so that's just a guess.

However, it is a very complex jump using specialized and complex gear. There's a lot more that can go wrong, and there is a marginally trained student in the mix, who is very unpredictable and may well do the worst possible thing at the worst possible time.

The rig has a number of extra things on it, such as the drogue, drogue release, how the drogue is collapsed during deployment, and the cutaway system. These all are potential fail points. Tandem rigs are often used very hard and the owners sometimes don't have time or money to do proper maintenance (it's rare, but think about it when you are shopping around for the "cheapest" jump).

There are extra steps in a tandem (throwing the drogue), extra risks in freefall (sidespin) and extra concerns on landing (having a student on the front).

And thrown into the mix is a marginally trained student. Often someone who has never jumped before, has no real interest in jumping again, and just wants to have a fun experience. Sometimes they react well and the instructor has an easy time, sometimes they do the damnedest thing at the worst possible time. The "stupid" in the following comment isn't a judgment on the intelligence of the student, and it really isn't intended to be derogatory. It's just a lot simpler and shorter than saying "marginally trained student capable of doing the worst possible thing at the worst possible time."

The TIs have a saying:
50 pound of shit on your back, 200 pound of stupid on the front, 5 handles and a pilot chute in tow. What could possibly go wrong?

Balanced against that extra complexity is the training and experience that is required to get a TI rating. Most TIs understand and appreciate the extra risk, and do what needs to be done to give the student a safe and enjoyable jump. Some get complacent and treat it as "just another jump", which is a good way to get into trouble.

If you are really interested in progressing eventually, let your TI know. There's a lot you can learn on a tandem, if you are interested and the TI is willing to teach you. Some TIs get a bit jaded at the "bucket listers" and don't bother explaining anything extra. Many of them are actually excited to get someone who really wants to learn what they can teach. You may want to ask for a "learning tandem" the next time you go. That way they can put you with a TI who will teach you more, rather than one who will just take you for a ride.

Last: Don't worry about being a "noob" and asking questions. Some of the trolls may flame you, but they can fuck off.
The only time you need to apologize for ignorance - is when you do nothing to change it.


Edit to fix Sandy's quote about ignorance.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Hellis 0]

wolfriverjoe

First off, there is no such thing as a "Student Cut Away."
It's a bad joke that is perpetuated by the ignorant and those with a sick sense of humor.

Just to let you know, I have seen a cutawayhandle on a paxharness.
A big red handle where the warninglable is and 3-rings at the topattachments.

The poor student wearing it probably had no idea

[kram88 0]

Thx for the reply. I need to do that next time i tandem. Last time the guy wouldn't really explain much about the jump and give me any insight on things I had questions about. Thanks!

[mr2mk1g 10]

If cash it tight consider looking for a place locally which train static line instead of a tandem which you seem to be considering as something just to tide you over till you can start properly.

A static line first jump course costs usually less than a tandem (this may or may not be true where you find yourself in the world) and it's a great way to get some ground school that will not be all that difference from an AFF first jump course.

If it's just to tide you over, well you just saved a few bucks for your AFF course and learned a heck of a lot more than you ever would on a tandem. If you still have a few bucks left over, you could do 2 or 3 jumps as training jumps on a static line course are usually not that much more than standard post-qualification jumps.

Heck you could even qualify that way - you could find doing only a couple of jumps a month is still enough to let you progress, albeit slowly and is within budget. Or if you get far enough through the program you can often later covert to AFF. Worst case scenario is you do 1 or 2 static line jumps, just to tied you over and for the same price as a tandem. When you do get round to AFF you'll have a much better knowledge base than if you'd just done a tandem.

If you can find somewhere locally that teaches a static line/IAD program.

[kram88 0]

I called up my local DZ and they said they dont do static lines... I tried searching the web and wasn't having any luck. If anyone knows a place that does that around San Marcos, TX (Austin / San Antonio area) let me know. Also I mentioned the bit about maybe an instructor teaching me different things to do in the air while tandem... She was like well not much to teach you since your only in the air for a few minutes.... She wasn't being helpful at all :\ Guess im just gunna have to wait to get licensed and enjoy being harnessed to a guy until then.. Gayyyy.

-On another note is there anything for me to look into for the time being? I go to the DZ from time to time and just watch people jump and watch them pack and ask questions... It doesn't seem like I will be getting licensed anytime soon. Maybe in the next couple years, but I would like to learn more about the sport for the time being. Learn different terms/lingo. Understand more safety procedures. Be informed. Etc.

[DougH 270]

kram88

I called up my local DZ and they said they dont do static lines... I tried searching the web and wasn't having any luck. If anyone knows a place that does that around San Marcos, TX (Austin / San Antonio area) let me know. Also I mentioned the bit about maybe an instructor teaching me different things to do in the air while tandem... She was like well not much to teach you since your only in the air for a few minutes.... She wasn't being helpful at all :\

It sounds like you got the manifest / phone worker who wasn't an instructor, and probably doesn't have many jumps under her belt.

Bypass her and go out to meet the instructors and ask them your questions. It wouldn't hurt the bring some beer, you will get their attention, but they will be happy to give you some information either way. Students underwrite my paycheck, I always try to make time for them, they are our life blood!

A tandem can be extremely instructional. We use a tandem to AFF progression and on the tandem levels the students have already gone through ground school. We practice body flight, altitude awareness, they pull the parachute. They check for a working canopy, have planned their exit point and canopy flight on the ground, and are the main operator of the parachute as long as they follow the plan.

Even my first timers and "bucket list" jumpers practice body flight, are welcome to pull the parachute and do most of the canopy flight if they want to (I heavily encourage this, it gives my arms a rest!).

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[kram88 0]

Yeah.... I figured I was talking to someone who wasn't the smartest in the subject or she just didn't want to bother with me. Always referring me to start AFF program... I know at my last jump I did about 6 months ago we were able to pull and they let us control the canopy. Just wanted to be able to learn how to get more stable in the air. Maybe move different directions. Learn how to control my body. Fly my body. Etc. It seems like the jumpers at the DZ dont really wanna bother with someone who is so new. Especially like the teachers/instructors. I get this impression that they are cocky.. and aren't really that helpful. Idk. Maybe not. Just get that vibe. And i feel like a newb trying to explain myself but not really fully understanding what im asking or talking about. :p

[kram88 0]

What does the drone do exactly for the tandem jumps? (dont know if thats the right word) Its the thing they release before the chute. So does it already pretty much make you stable in the air before you deploy? How much different is it jumping without one of those? Is it only for tandem jumps??

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

kram88

What does the drone do exactly for the tandem jumps? (dont know if thats the right word) Its the thing they release before the chute. So does it already pretty much make you stable in the air before you deploy? How much different is it jumping without one of those? Is it only for tandem jumps??

The drogue? That slows you down just a bit so you fall closer normal human falling speeds. Remember that bit about Galileo and things falling at the same speed? Turns out yeah, not so much. Two guys stuck together fall faster than two guys separately, thanks to wind resistance. (On the moon you'd fall at the same speed, probably. Not much wind resistance there.)

There are a lot of benefits to falling a little more slowly. Freefall lasts a few seconds longer, obviously. It's also less stress on the gear at opening time.

Falling faster actually makes you more stable. When I started slowing down to normal fall rates, it felt unstable as hell until I got used to it. Typically you don't need a drogue as a solo skydiver unless you're jumping from 25 miles AGL and want to set a record for longest freefall ever.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[kram88 0]

Hm... Yeah its drouge. My fault. She said that helps get you stable? Also does anyone know how good San Marcos' DZ is? Is it reputable or what? Also what are good wind conditions to jump on?

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

kram88

Hm... Yeah its drouge. My fault. She said that helps get you stable? Also does anyone know how good San Marcos' DZ is? Is it reputable or what? Also what are good wind conditions to jump on?

I don't know how much it assists in stability. The only time I'm spending a lot of time near TIs is when I'm on a load with them, and they don't usually go over that bit with their students. You do learn rather a lot by osmosis though! I'm listening to the lecture a lot more since they banished trackers to the front of the plane.

They'll jump tandems up here up to 20 knots. Those guys seem to be able to land on a dime in any wind conditions I've seen them jump in. There's a cafe right across from the tandem landing area and I'll go there for lunch on work days and just watch 'em land one after another. In general my own preference is any steady wind. It's a huge pain in the ass when it's shifting all over the place. The days when it's straight down the runway all day long, those are nice.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[rsb5267 0]

If it's a USPA approved dropzone, it's reputable.

About wind conditions, you'll find as a student that they are much stricter about letting you in the air. 15 mph is usually the limit for students. This is because you are jumping very large student canopies, and high winds will tend to give you some backwards movement when turning into the wind for your landing which is NOT good. Also, a wind that changes directions every few seconds will get you grounded as a student too due to sketchy landings.

[dthames 0]

kram88

I called up my local DZ and they said they dont do static lines... I tried searching the web and wasn't having any luck. If anyone knows a place that does that around San Marcos, TX (Austin / San Antonio area) let me know. Also I mentioned the bit about maybe an instructor teaching me different things to do in the air while tandem... She was like well not much to teach you since your only in the air for a few minutes.... She wasn't being helpful at all :\ Guess im just gunna have to wait to get licensed and enjoy being harnessed to a guy until then.. Gayyyy.

-On another note is there anything for me to look into for the time being? I go to the DZ from time to time and just watch people jump and watch them pack and ask questions... It doesn't seem like I will be getting licensed anytime soon. Maybe in the next couple years, but I would like to learn more about the sport for the time being. Learn different terms/lingo. Understand more safety procedures. Be informed. Etc.

I was going to mention SL as well but if a DZ says the don't do them, ask about IAD (instructor activated deployment). It should be simlar to SL in cost and is nearly the same but the instructor holds your pilot chute when you exit. This removes the need for a different rig setup.

For the DZs that normally only fly larger planes, I don't know if you will find anything other than AFF. As some mentioned, go talk face to face. If you can explain your goal and the limits you are working with, someone might find a way to help you outside of that the person on the phone knows.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[dzswoop717 5]

If you have time to hang out at the DZ, why not talk to the owner to find out if you could work for jumps. Be ready to do almost anything and for very little compensation. Have a good attitude and work ethic and you may be a licensed skydiver before you know it. Good help is hard to find and any DZO will appreciate a dedicated, hardworking young person. You may end up working as a Tandem Instructor for him some day. First impressions are everything. also, THERE IS NO STUDENT RELEASE SYSTEM ON A STANDARD TANDEM RIG!!!!

[Arvoitus 1]

Hellis

***First off, there is no such thing as a "Student Cut Away."
It's a bad joke that is perpetuated by the ignorant and those with a sick sense of humor.

Just to let you know, I have seen a cutawayhandle on a paxharness.
A big red handle where the warninglable is and 3-rings at the topattachments.

The poor student wearing it probably had no idea

Do you know why that kind of setup existed?

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[kram88 0]

They are USPA certified but they dont do SL or IAD.. Also that's a good idea seeing if I can work something out with the owner. May just try and figure something out with that..

[kram88 0]

Whats the problem with clouds? Why are they a bad thing? Also how do you avoid a hard opening? I mean its the way you pack.. and those little rubber-band type things are to help with a smoother opening? How does one get a hard opening?

[dthames 0]

kram88

Whats the problem with clouds? Why are they a bad thing? Also how do you avoid a hard opening? I mean its the way you pack.. and those little rubber-band type things are to help with a smoother opening? How does one get a hard opening?

Clouds:
You need to be able to see what is coming at you, what you are headed for, and for others (including aircraft) to see you. Cloud cause a problem with visibility and there are FAA rules about them for the benefit of everyone that is in the sky.

Hard opening:
Most often caused by some packing mistakes, incorrect deployment posture or speed, or equipment problems. Opening head down at 160 MPH might cause a hard opening. Packing and leaving the slider down will cause a hard opening. I am sure there are many more examples.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[kram88 0]

Cool. Well I just did my 2nd one. Wasnt like OMG exp like my first one (which is to be expected) always trying to chase that first high.. lol. But I noticed myself paying more attention and really focused. He let me pull which was cool. And we did 90 degree turns which was weird seeing as its sort of inverted. Tandems are cool and all but im ready to start my school and jumping solo :\
The manager there said they werent looking for anyone to do anything.. but im gunna keep trying back and bugging them until they crack :p

[kram88 0]

Hey can someone explain to me the exit. Like i dont understand it. My teacher today was saying theres like a slide thing the wind does so once you go out it kinda does a certain thing for you? or some shit? Also. The plane has to be positioned properly to jump out? What way does it have to be positioned? When do you know your good? How come i saw a vid about this guy exiting and straight flew right into the wing or tail once he exited? How did that happen? The wind just grabbed him and he ate it...

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

kram88

Hey can someone explain to me the exit. Like i dont understand it. My teacher today was saying theres like a slide thing the wind does so once you go out it kinda does a certain thing for you? or some shit? Also. The plane has to be positioned properly to jump out? What way does it have to be positioned? When do you know your good? How come i saw a vid about this guy exiting and straight flew right into the wing or tail once he exited? How did that happen? The wind just grabbed him and he ate it...

You just jump out of the plane and fall down real fast!

Ok, so here's the deal. The plane's going forward! Real fast! Like maybe 80 mph forward real fast, maybe 120 mph forward real fast. So the wind's blowing at you from the front of the plane. So you aim that way (toward the propeller) and... stuff. Aim the other way, you're gonna have a bad time. Not like hitting the tail bad time though, more like flipping over a few times bad time.

Tail strike can happen a couple ways. You could jump up when you leave the plane. It's not hard not to do that.

You could be in a wingsuit and open your wings too soon. It's not hard not to do that either.

The pilot could stall the plane. That doesn't happen very often. If you whang into the tail when that happens, you can at least take solace in the fact that he's probably going to get fired for stalling the plane. That's an "OMG you could have killed a skydiver" kind of error. Assuming they didn't kill a skydiver. They really don't want to make those.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?