Energy is like money

[olofscience 422]

7 minutes ago, metalslug said:

Scroll up again. I wasn't replying to bill's post, I was replying to yours. Are you OK ?

Yep, thanks for asking.

So, anything on my points at all?

[olofscience 422]

10 minutes ago, metalslug said:

..and batteries provide when solar is unavailable (e.g; evening), therefore their ability to do that becomes very relevant. Not obvious to you?

Oh, I'm pretty clear on their potential role in an energy grid. But they're still different and shouldn't be confused with each other.

Solar can be used without any energy storage, grid-scale batteries can be used without any solar. In fact, there are many more solar installations than there are grid-scale batteries right now.

So, the topics shouldn't be confused with each other - I'm sure you have mental capacity to keep them separate in your head, right?

[metalslug 31]

1 minute ago, olofscience said:

Solar can be used without any energy storage.

Not when solar is down (for example; evenings) they can't, which was the comparison I stated, unlike a turbine that can. So, the topics shouldn't be confused with each other - I'm sure you have mental capacity to keep them separate... blah (Are we really going to do this.. again?)

[gowlerk 1,916]

On 4/17/2024 at 12:23 PM, olofscience said:

...so is your argument that, as soon as solar power generates 3.5x breakeven energy, the sun stops shining?

I believe solar is the only electricity source we have that does not involve spinning magnets around to create a flux in a magnetic field. This huge advantage plus the fact that the Sun is always shining somewhere and the Earth has plenty of surface areas available leads me to the conclusion that solar is how almost all our electricity needs will be met eventually. It's really a no brainer. The obstacles of effective distribution and storage all have known solutions.  

[olofscience 422]

2 minutes ago, metalslug said:

Not when solar is down (for example; evenings) they can't, which was the comparison I stated, unlike a turbine that can.

Engineers who design and manage energy grids don't mandate that ALL energy sources you plug into the grid has to be a self-contained, 24/7/365 generating source of energy.

There are a LOT of solar power plants with no associated battery. Heck, several DZs here have a solar farm right next to them.

 

Why set this arbitrary goalpost? There's no good engineering reason for it. Oh, I know...

[olofscience 422]

10 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

I believe solar is the only electricity source we have that does not involve spinning magnets around to create a flux in a magnetic field. This huge advantage plus the fact that the Sun is always shining somewhere and the Earth has plenty of surface areas available leads me to the conclusion that solar is how almost all our electricity needs will be met eventually. It's really a no brainer. The obstacles of effective distribution and storage all have known solutions.  

Solar AND wind.

It's telling that metalslug has mixed up lithium batteries with solar in his arbitrary goalpost setting, while neglecting to mention wind at all. Wind has been the traditional complement to solar for the past several decades. Grid-scale storage is a very recent new addition to the mix. Another is HVDC power transmission over long distances, making grid balancing even more efficient.

[metalslug 31]

8 minutes ago, olofscience said:

It's telling that metalslug has mixed up lithium batteries with solar..

Nope, read again. It was you who mixed them up and moved the posts. You even confused yourself with bill.  For as long a batteries exist in the mix, their performance is relevant.

Actually.. let's screw this. I came back to this forum after a long time only to be reminded, in my first thread contribution, why I left in the first place; reading asinine arguments for sake of argument. It's time (again) for me to rejoin the adults, elsewhere. I might check in once in while, if only to read more parodies of reality and resist taking the bait.

Edited April 21 by metalslug

[johnhking1 73]

36 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

This huge advantage plus the fact that the Sun is always shining somewhere and the Earth has plenty of surface areas available leads me to the conclusion that solar is how almost all our electricity needs will be met eventually.

Now all we need is a world wide electric grid so the part of the day time part of the earth can supply the night time place.

[gowlerk 1,916]

12 minutes ago, johnhking1 said:

Now all we need is a world wide electric grid so the part of the day time part of the earth can supply the night time place.

Well....Nicola Tesla thought he had the answer to that. But it seems he was wrong. None the less the problems of storage and distribution are not insurmountable. Unless the of course the increase in consumption being seen now by the apparently insatiable Bitcoin and now AI sectors push our needs to levels that can't be sustained. 

[billvon 2,407]

6 hours ago, gowlerk said:

I believe solar is the only electricity source we have that does not involve spinning magnets around to create a flux in a magnetic field.

And aneutronic fusion.  But we are far away from that.

[billvon 2,407]

7 hours ago, metalslug said:

Herein lies another contradiction; renewables are hailed as the cheap form of energy and yet in (nearly?) every place where solar and wind are are on the rise to replace fossil fuel electricity there are no trends of a drop in wholesale electricity pricing. People can 'brush up' on renewable talking points all day, but most are 'brushing up' on what they read on their utility bill, and a future of recycling costs (potentially more than mining costs) and many more batteries to be built for sustainable all-day output.

When I read my utility bill I note a charge of $6 a month, since I generate more via solar than I use.

What's your bill like?

And wholesale electricity pricing IS going down.

"After a volatile 2022, average wholesale electricity prices at most major trading hubs in the Lower 48 states generally declined and traded within more narrow price ranges in 2023, according to data from S&P Global Market Intelligence."

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61445

Australia too:

"The wholesale price of electricity dropped sharply as coal prices collapsed and more renewables entered the system . . ."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-13/drop-in-wholesale-power-prices-but-cheaper-bills-unlikely/103457354

That does not, of course, mean retail power prices will come down.  Those are set by unelected PUC regulators who are far more interested in industry profits than passing along savings to consumers.

[gowlerk 1,916]

49 minutes ago, billvon said:

And aneutronic fusion.  But we are far away from that.

Wouldn't that be how the Sun radiates energy?

[billvon 2,407]

18 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Wouldn't that be how the Sun radiates energy?

The Sun gets its energy from a lot of different fusion reactions, many of which release neutrons - but the primary reactions (proton-proton and proton-deuterium) are aneutronic.  All that fusion heats up the sun, reaching temperatures of millions of Kelvin in the center, and about 5500 Kelvin at the surface.  The surface radiates that heat away as blackbody radiation. which is what we see as the energy from the Sun.

So we're really seeing the heat from the reactions rather than the light from the reactions themselves, although some of the gamma rays (and almost all of the neutrinos) generated during the fusion process make it out of the Sun as well.

[gowlerk 1,916]

17 minutes ago, billvon said:

The surface radiates that heat away as blackbody radiation. which is what we see as the energy from the Sun.

So, after reading up on that I find that the common term for that is basically "heat". Now I'm thinking about being outside on a warm day and feeling the power of the Sun 93 million miles away. And that makes we wonder why some people think we can only power our civilization with fossil fuels. Just because that is what we have done for about 150 years. Talk about a lack of vision.