Alternatives to jump numbers as a gateway for progression?

[davelepka 4]

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Think about where in the skydive injuries most injuries occur

I cannot think of a single skydiving injury that could be replicated in a tunnel. Any injury that occurs strictly in the freefall portion of a skydive is the result of a collision, and that takes way more than the 14 or 16ft of space a tunnel affords you to build up speed, and then mis-manage that speed causing a collision.

Tunnels make you a better at the easiest, least relevant part of the skydive. Aside from being able to be stable at pull time, the freefall skills required for a skydive are non-existent. Static line proves this as every static line jump is a complete skydive with no freefall of any kind.

[Nataly 38]

The problem with the Tunnel debate is that it ends-up being an "old-school" vs "tunnel-rat" debate... Whilst the tunnel is no substitute for a "real" skydive, many, many, MANY skydivers would benefit from spending more time in the tunnel to gain "air-awareness"... Correct body position not only allows you to fly better, but it teaches you how to SAFELY get to formations and fly in proximity to others. Controlling your belly/sit/head-down undeniably makes for a safer jump, even though it does not help with your canopy piloting or atmonauti or tracing/tracking. It's an excellent tool for learning skills that you have so little time to develop on a skydive. Excelling at any part of a skydive is a GOOD thing, as long as you don't ignore/overestimate your other skills.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[Nataly 38]

davelepka

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Think about where in the skydive injuries most injuries occur

I cannot think of a single skydiving injury that could be replicated in a tunnel. Any injury that occurs strictly in the freefall portion of a skydive is the result of a collision, and that takes way more than the 14 or 16ft of space a tunnel affords you to build up speed, and then mis-manage that speed causing a collision.

Tunnels make you a better at the easiest, least relevant part of the skydive. Aside from being able to be stable at pull time, the freefall skills required for a skydive are non-existent. Static line proves this as every static line jump is a complete skydive with no freefall of any kind.

Wrong, wrong, WRONG. People who spend countless hours in the tunnel are *very* good at adjusting their fall-rate, thus making collision FAR less likely.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[davelepka 4]

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Wrong, wrong, WRONG. People who spend countless hours in the tunnel are *very* good at adjusting their fall-rate, thus making collision FAR less likely

Injury causing collisions are not caused by incorrect slight corrections in fall rate. Injury causing collisions are caused by the significant speed differential of a jumper diving toward a formation and a jumper already in the formation.

That type of speed differential is not possible within the confines of the tunnel. Therefore, the judgment needed to know when to 'hit the brakes' to get stopped in time can also not be learned in the tunnel.

The tunnel is a tiny little piece of the sky, and spending time in the there makes you good at flying inside of a tiny piece of sky. Anything that involves more separation than a tunnel will allow is not something you can learn inside of a tunnel.

[SkydiverShawn 0]

NWFlyer

***

That said free fall is only half the skydive. I'm stating the obvious here but there is a huge difference between flying your body and flying your canopy.

And what you can do in the tunnel is only half of the freefall portion. Tunnel can't teach you exits, diving/approaching a formation, tracking, breakoff safety, etc. Tunnel's a useful tool but being a badass tunnel flyer does not automatically make you ready for all types of skydives.

I completely agree...

Being competent in the tunnel can also dilute ones perspective about the rest of a skydive. Meaning that they get confident is some skills and that confidence can be overstated with regards to the aspects of a skydive you mentioned.

The stresses involved with opening the door, climbing out of and letting go of a properly functioning plane can be overwhelming, and there is no way a potential skydiver or student can prepare for that in the tunnel, and that does not account for the stresses at deployment, canopy flight and landing?

In fact, three points of a skydive are the most stressful, exit/deployment/landing. Not one of these can be taught in a tunnel.

You will never be more alive than you are the instant you let go!

[offaxis 0]

SkydiverShawn

Being competent in the tunnel can also dilute ones perspective about the rest of a skydive. Meaning that they get confident is some skills and that confidence can be overstated with regards to the aspects of a skydive you mentioned.

The stresses involved with opening the door, climbing out of and letting go of a properly functioning plane can be overwhelming, and there is no way a potential skydiver or student can prepare for that in the tunnel, and that does not account for the stresses at deployment, canopy flight and landing?

In fact, three points of a skydive are the most stressful, exit/deployment/landing. Not one of these can be taught in a tunnel.

Fact!

I do however assert that after watching many, many, scary AFF jumps via youtube the only thing I had to fall back on was knowing that a good foundation of flying my body was the only thing that gave me the confidence to jump.

Yes there are several aspects of a jump that don't include the free fall portion of the jump but it's primarily what's going to determine any AFF student's pass / fail criteria unless they just can't fly a canopy which is a different think all together.

I thought about this more last night and I think that while jump numbers count the USPA should introduce something like what the UK practices - http://www.bpa.org.uk/training-and-progression/further-progression/

This would incorporate better the crossover skills between the sky and the tunnel.

[Remster 24]

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And that's exactly why jump numbers are currently the best measure regarding progression...and to a smaller but still significant degree - time in the sport.

I'd add to that currency.

Remster

[airtwardo 6]

Remster

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And that's exactly why jump numbers are currently the best measure regarding progression...and to a smaller but still significant degree - time in the sport.

I'd add to that currency.

Yeah...it helps your progression tremendously if ya spend a lot of currency on beer!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Squeak 17]

davelepka

That type of speed differential is not possible within the confines of the tunnel. Therefore, the judgment needed to know when to 'hit the brakes' to get stopped in time can also not be learned in the tunnel. .

You need to watch more tunnel flying Dave. the changes of speed and speed in change of direction that some tunnel rats achieve is very impressive.
As to the size of the tunnel, you're right the biggest is only 8' in radius but no one gets seriously injured by 'lateral" approaches. and there's plenty enough height in a tunnel to be able to practice vertical descents

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[davelepka 4]

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You need to watch more tunnel flying Dave. the changes of speed and speed in change of direction that some tunnel rats achieve is very impressive.
As to the size of the tunnel, you're right the biggest is only 8' in radius but no one gets seriously injured by 'lateral" approaches. and there's plenty enough height in a tunnel to be able to practice vertical descents

All true, but it's still not the same as the type of distance/separation you can get on a simple diving exit. Leave the plane literally one second after the base, you are dealing with distances far greater then the height or diameter of any tunnel. Two seconds, and it's even further than that.

The tunnel is applicable to certain parts of the freefall, and for those parts it's a dead-on simulation that can really build bodyflying skills for both in and out of the tunnel. For other parts, it's just doesn't have the capability to replicate the actual freefall with enough realism to really be used as a training tool in those areas.

You can't pull off exits and fly points on the hill in a tunnel. You can't swoop down to a formation and learn the fine art of 'stopping', and you can break off and fine-tune your max track position.

[nigel99 144]

davelepka

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You need to watch more tunnel flying Dave. the changes of speed and speed in change of direction that some tunnel rats achieve is very impressive.
As to the size of the tunnel, you're right the biggest is only 8' in radius but no one gets seriously injured by 'lateral" approaches. and there's plenty enough height in a tunnel to be able to practice vertical descents

All true, but it's still not the same as the type of distance/separation you can get on a simple diving exit. Leave the plane literally one second after the base, you are dealing with distances far greater then the height or diameter of any tunnel. Two seconds, and it's even further than that.

The tunnel is applicable to certain parts of the freefall, and for those parts it's a dead-on simulation that can really build bodyflying skills for both in and out of the tunnel. For other parts, it's just doesn't have the capability to replicate the actual freefall with enough realism to really be used as a training tool in those areas.

You can't pull off exits and fly points on the hill in a tunnel. You can't swoop down to a formation and learn the fine art of 'stopping', and you can break off and fine-tune your max track position.

By far the biggest issue that I have seen is the false sense of proficiency that comes from the tunnel. It is a recipe for disaster, and people rapidly forget that the guy with 20 jumps, but is a tunnel instructor, may well be capable of being on that complex dive, but he is still a 20 jump person and their canopy skills are those of a 20 jump person.

In a way we have seen the argument before in terms of 'I'm a pilot/glider pilot/paraglider' and therefore way ahead of the curve of other jumpers.

Sadly, it boils down to the people who resist the measures to improve safety are almost always those that need them most. I just don't get the mindset that is in such a rush to bypass the journey of learning.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Nataly 38]

davelepka

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Wrong, wrong, WRONG. People who spend countless hours in the tunnel are *very* good at adjusting their fall-rate, thus making collision FAR less likely

Injury causing collisions are not caused by incorrect slight corrections in fall rate. Injury causing collisions are caused by the significant speed differential of a jumper diving toward a formation and a jumper already in the formation.

What Squeak said.

They can turn on a dime and stop in a milli-second and you need to watch a hell of a lot more tunnel videos to understand just how good these guys are at *not* hitting each other whilst coping with radical changes in position/speed.

Like I said, they should not over-estimate their skills in other areas, but some seasoned skydivers would benefit greatly by getting some time in the tunnel. Whilst flying skills are not the only thing you need, it's simply not true that they are an insignificant part of a safe skydive.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[davelepka 4]

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They can turn on a dime and stop in a milli-second and you need to watch a hell of a lot more tunnel videos to understand just how good these guys are at *not* hitting each other whilst coping with radical changes in position/speed.

Again, that's within the confines of the tunnel, and what type of acceleration that space will allow. Can they dive at 200 mph towards a formation flying at 110 mph?

I can, and have many times, and in the early days of doing so, I slid past many formations from hitting the brakes too late. I was aiming off to the side, like I was supposed to, there was no issue, but if I didn't know that rule or didn't do it correctly, it might have been a different story.

I'm not denying the skills of the top tunnel flyers. I've watched just as many videos as anyone else, and the shit they do is crazy. What I've also done is spent close to 20 years making just under 6000 jumps, and it's easy for me to see the limitations of the tunnel. Note that I give it it's due, I never suggested it was useless to skydivers or had no place, just that there is a fine line between where it's very useful, and where it's not useful at all.

[airtwardo 6]

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...it's simply not true that they are an insignificant part of a safe skydive.

I don't think anybody is saying the skills gain in a tunnel are in any way 'insignificant', it's obviously a valuable tool.

There are probably quite a few skydivers that are in the sport now because they hammered out problems they were experiencing in that less stressful environment.

But it is what it is... a 'tool' that though useful, has it's limitations regarding Skydiving instruction.

Is someone who utilizes the tunnel to sharpen their flying skills a better skydiver than someone would doesn't at the same experience level?

~Probably a much better flyer. But no matter how much 'significance' you put on that particular skill, it's still not the whole package.

Trying to 'shortcut' the progression ladder because of skills gained through the tunnel is like blowing off drivers ed. because you kick ass on X-box GTA.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[condorandino 0]

I think we are all losing the point here... the real discussion is not jump numbers vs tunnel time. Both measures can easily over/underestimate ones ability to fly safely.

A guy/girl that has spent 1.000 jumps doing mostly solo, small ways on his/her belly and camera jobs, without doing any coaching on tracking, shouldn't be allowed to do a 14-way tracking jump. His/her ability is overestimate (by current jump count measure) to do that specific jump.

A guy/girl that has 300 jumps with 200 of those with an experienced tracking coach, having attended several boogies and camps with very competent LOs, could be alot more proficient and safe to jump with, in a big-way tracking jump, than the guy/girl on the first example.

And I still haven't included tunnel time on this equation... so, no, not even jump numbers, neither tunnel time tells you the whole story.

The "home" article today in dropzone.com is about tracking/atmo/wingsuit accidents and prevention... so we could be discussing different ways to measure ones ability/proficiency (safely, of course) to fly in each type of jump/discipline/jump complexity, regardless of jump numbers AND tunnel time...

Perhaps a certificate and/or license to jump X discipline with Y requisites (card) up to Z number of participants would be the best way to do it.... is it feasible to apply this kind of "measure" in the skydiving world? Better.... how it could become feasible?

[DSE 3]

condorandino

Perhaps a certificate and/or license to jump X discipline with Y requisites (card) up to Z number of participants would be the best way to do it.... is it feasible to apply this kind of "measure" in the skydiving world? Better.... how it could become feasible?

Feasible is the question. Since jump numbers are a reasonably safe way to know at least how many exits and landings someone has, it is a rough estimate of 'air awareness' as well. Sure...someone with 10,000 skydives and five wingsuit jumps isn't likely to be a good wingsuit pilot, nor is a wingsuiter with 3500 WS skydives likely ready for a four way head-down with multiple points.
However, USPA and its general member BOD have indicated they don't want advanced training, ratings, resource materials at any level to 'clog' the system. Even when the members indicate they want it by way of multiple votes. Ergo, additional bureaucracy won't fit the bill, and do we really want it?
Jump numbers are a very good baseline. Not perfect by any means, but neither would certificates handed out over a beer and a bonfire.

[airtwardo 6]

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Perhaps a certificate and/or license to jump X discipline with Y requisites (card) up to Z number of participants would be the best way to do it.... is it feasible to apply this kind of "measure" in the skydiving world? Better.... how it could become feasible?

I get what you're saying, and in theory something along those lines might be beneficial to 'certain' people regarding certain circumstances.

But in the real world it would likely be a logistical nightmare to institute & oversee.

The USPA resources are extremely limited at this point, bringing about an 'additional' program such as this just wouldn't be something that would be practical on a cost effective basis.

That said ~ situations such a you describe 'should' fall under the heading of good judgement & common sense.

What we REALLY need is a program that both teaches & oversees the concept of personal responsibility.

Believe it or not, there once was a time in this sport people didn't need a manual & a flowchart to know how & when to fart in the airplane.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[condorandino 0]

airtwardo

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Perhaps a certificate and/or license to jump X discipline with Y requisites (card) up to Z number of participants would be the best way to do it.... is it feasible to apply this kind of "measure" in the skydiving world? Better.... how it could become feasible?

I get what you're saying, and in theory something along those lines might be beneficial to 'certain' people regarding certain circumstances.

But in the real world it would likely be a logistical nightmare to institute & oversee.

The USPA resources are extremely limited at this point, bringing about an 'additional' program such as this just wouldn't be something that would be practical on a cost effective basis.

That said ~ situations such a you describe 'should' fall under the heading of good judgement & common sense.

What we REALLY need is a program that both teaches & oversees the concept of personal responsibility.

Believe it or not, there once was a time in this sport people didn't need a manual & a flowchart to know how & when to fart in the airplane.

DSE

***

Perhaps a certificate and/or license to jump X discipline with Y requisites (card) up to Z number of participants would be the best way to do it.... is it feasible to apply this kind of "measure" in the skydiving world? Better.... how it could become feasible?

Feasible is the question. Since jump numbers are a reasonably safe way to know at least how many exits and landings someone has, it is a rough estimate of 'air awareness' as well. Sure...someone with 10,000 skydives and five wingsuit jumps isn't likely to be a good wingsuit pilot, nor is a wingsuiter with 3500 WS skydives likely ready for a four way head-down with multiple points.
However, USPA and its general member BOD have indicated they don't want advanced training, ratings, resource materials at any level to 'clog' the system. Even when the members indicate they want it by way of multiple votes. Ergo, additional bureaucracy won't fit the bill, and do we really want it?
Jump numbers are a very good baseline. Not perfect by any means, but neither would certificates handed out over a beer and a bonfire.

Yes, I get what you are both saying... and I do agree with those headlines... just wanted to make sure we stopped discussing something that wasn't leading us anywhere (tunnel vs jumps).

Now we're advancing the discussion, and I really think we should be open and more creative... air collisions have become a factor we have to address in some other way.

I too, am unkeen of more bureaucracy... nevertheless, the problem persists... jump numbers are not a good horizontal measure, it's just a vertical measure of experience and knowledge (and why not say "survivability").

Perhaps then, we could think not in a certificate to allow people to go into any given jump, but a rating for someone organizing those jumps (for example a Wingsuit coach rating would be required to organize 3-5 ways; or Freefly coach rating to organize 3-6 freefly-ways; or RW Instructor rating to organize 8+ ways).

Those guidelines would raise the responsability of those more experienced (and also give an objective measure - as bad as it might be - of "good judgment").

[airtwardo 6]

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...but a rating for someone organizing those jumps (for example a Wingsuit coach rating would be required to organize 3-5 ways; or Freefly coach rating to organize 3-6 freefly-ways; or RW Instructor rating to organize 8+ ways).

I think your heart's in the right place, but I honestly don't see anything like that happening.

Where do you jump? I'm curious because 'my' home Dz has organizers that are pretty good vetting people before just throwing 'em on a dive they may not be ready for.

That's part of 'being' an organizer at a larger dropzone, getting the right people together so they have the best chance for a safe & successful dive.

They don't 'just' go by jump numbers, they ask questions, look for references if it's a particularity complex skydive...they tend to want to keep you and the others safe and not 'waste' time & money for a bunch of people with manifesting 'little chance for success' formations.

A prescribed rating/outline regarding organizing a complex dive seems to be a solution looking for a problem.

Again personal responsibility, when I visit a different dropzone - I take it upon myself to insure I'm familiar with the area & aircraft, the general flow of the operation,and that I don't put myself on anything beyond my skill level.

Are situations like you're describing really a significant problem where you are at?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[NWFlyer 2]

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Where do you jump? I'm curious because 'my' home Dz has organizers that are pretty good vetting people before just throwing 'em on a dive they may not be ready for.

That's part of 'being' an organizer at a larger dropzone, getting the right people together so they have the best chance for a safe & successful dive.

They don't 'just' go by jump numbers, they ask questions, look for references if it's a particularity complex skydive...they tend to want to keep you and the others safe and not 'waste'' time & money for a bunch of people with manifesting 'little chance for success' formations.

This. I could walk up to a freefly organizer and say "I've got over 1200 skydives, can I join your jump?" If they didn't ask me how many were freefly, what type, what size, how recently, etc., etc., etc, they wouldn't be a very good organizer, now, would they? (The answer is ... almost none, and not in several years! I've got no business being on a freefly jump bigger than 2!).

By the same token, I'm a very experienced and current belly flier, but almost all those jumps are small to mid-sized jumps. I can handle bigger ways, but would fully expect to be vetted for those, and wouldn't expect to get on one with an organizer who didn't know me at all, at least not without references from someone the organizer knew and trusted who did know me and my skills.

I've done a limited amount of organizing with newer jumpers, and I'll do my best to keep those groups smaller so that we have a high chance of success, safety, and learning. I've turned away additional people when the group gets bigger than I think we have the experience for. Of course, that's also been in a situation where I had the support of the event organizer to keep the groups smallish; in other cases, organizers are incentivized to get as many bodies as possible on the plane.

It's also incumbent upon me to know who I'm jumping with and how they form their groups. The more experience I get, the more likely I am to pull off a jump if I can see that the organizer is taking all comers and the jump is getting bigger than I think is likely to be successful with the skill and experience on the jump. I like to be on successful skydives, but more than that I like to be on safe skydives, and if I see a high potential for shit show, I'll sit back down.

Of course, the irony is it took a few years in the sport for me to see that. When I think back on some of the shit show jumps I was on when I was in the couple hundred jump range ... hoo boy! Happy I survived those long enough to be more picky.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[mjosparky 3]

The fatality reports are full of young jumpers that were sure the sills were “better than average”. Getting ahead in skydiving is not a race……it’s about survival. The best jumpers in the world got to the top starting with baby steps which led to skills and the experience to use those skills safely. Something I posted some years ago…..

"Some of the best in the world, Dave Wilds, Tom Piras, Roger Nelson…. They were true Skygods, World Champions – Icons of the sport.

They had natural talent, had developed incredible skills and were hugely current.

... And yet the ground offered them no concession for their level of skill or experience.

Knowing that your experience and skill will probably never approach their level, try not to be so arrogant as to think for a moment you will be afforded any more consideration."

Most of us are not nearly as good as we would like to believe.

Sparky

http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb03/overestimate.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overconfidence_effect

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Squeak 17]

mjosparky

The fatality reports are full of young jumpers that were sure the sills were “better than average”. Getting ahead in skydiving is not a race……it’s about survival. The best jumpers in the world got to the top starting with baby steps which led to skills and the experience to use those skills safely. Something I posted some years ago…..

"Some of the best in the world, Dave Wilds, Tom Piras, Roger Nelson…. They were true Skygods, World Champions – Icons of the sport.

They had natural talent, had developed incredible skills and were hugely current.

... And yet the ground offered them no concession for their level of skill or experience.

Knowing that your experience and skill will probably never approach their level, try not to be so arrogant as to think for a moment you will be afforded any more consideration."

Most of us are not nearly as good as we would like to believe.

Sparky

http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb03/overestimate.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overconfidence_effect

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[billvon 2,400]

> but some seasoned skydivers would benefit greatly by getting some time in the tunnel.

And to an even larger degree, tunnel flyers would benefit greatly by getting out there and making some skydives (and more importantly learning canopy control.)

[champu 1]

diablopilot

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I think we've all seen both jumpers with far fewer than that who are heads up enough to fly cameras

No, I haven't and I've been cruising around this patch longer than most.

There's no such thing as a jumper with far fewer than 200 jumps. You can't have less than 0 jumps and that's not far fewer than 200.

Did I miss something or does everyone but me live 8 hours one way from the nearest 182 tandem factory where it takes an entire skydiving career to get to 200 jumps?

davelepka

I cannot think of a single skydiving injury that could be replicated in a tunnel. Any injury that occurs strictly in the freefall portion of a skydive is the result of a collision, and that takes way more than the 14 or 16ft of space a tunnel affords you to build up speed, and then mis-manage that speed causing a collision.

Tunnels make you a better at the easiest, least relevant part of the skydive. Aside from being able to be stable at pull time, the freefall skills required for a skydive are non-existent. Static line proves this as every static line jump is a complete skydive with no freefall of any kind.

You can cork and have a collision with another jumper that results in injury while freeflying in the tunnel or while in the sky, so it can be helpful in preventing that. But even that's not simulated perfectly, because if you go to a fast backfly position in the tunnel and end up on the net it's not a big deal, but you just bombed out the bottom of the formation on a skydive. Is that a problem? *shrugs* it may result in one if you don't get back where you belong before breakoff.