What the frick? Why the hell do so few DZs seem to offer AFF anymore, just AFP?

[jtiflyer 0]

catyduck

At my DZ, AFP starts with two tandems. Then solo jumps are with only one instructor from the beginning.

Obviously I'm biased b/c everyone thinks their training method is best , but here are the advantages from the perspective of someone who just did the program:

-longer, more structured program (18 jumps) that incorporates AFF coach jumps--basically designed to get you to your A license instead of floundering around or getting lost in the shuffle post-AFF

-emphasis on canopy skills with each level, not just freefall. I had the A license canopy skills section filled out by jump 10 or 11, IIRC. (Well...except the accuracy bits, ha!)

-fewer new freefall skills jammed into each level => less intimidating, get more practice on each

I have the impression that AFP is more geared towards converting students (at least, successful ones) into licensed jumpers, but what do I know.

Lemme guess you jump at SDC or Spaceland

[Ron 7]

I have taught both, prefer AFF.

The tandems are ok, but after one there is little real benefit IMO for most students.

And going from a tandem to single jump master is not a great idea IMO either. If the exit goes to shit the one AFF is going to try and hold on.... But as the pair spins the AFFI is not going to want to let go. I have had a student go fetal out the door several times and with two JM's we normally just hold them in the style tuck till they arch or we deploy him.

And the multiple 'levels' after the AFF are pretty much just the coach jumps.

It seems excessive to me.

But I can see the benefit for the DZ's.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

malooper

*** Near's I can tell they're trying to head off the new jumper blues and increase retention.

What are the "new jumper blues?" I can guess but I like being sure. Wondering if that's what I'm dealing with..

That's where you leave coaching and are no longer the center of anyone's attention. Having achieved your goal of a license, you are now unsure what to do in the sport.

I haven't encountered this problem yet. It'll be funny if it happens to me after I do my wingsuit jump course. But now I know it's fun to jump with friends and new skydivers, so I don't think it will.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[oldwomanc6 38]

FlyingRhenquest

****** Near's I can tell they're trying to head off the new jumper blues and increase retention.

What are the "new jumper blues?" I can guess but I like being sure. Wondering if that's what I'm dealing with..

That's where you leave coaching and are no longer the center of anyone's attention. Having achieved your goal of a license, you are now unsure what to do in the sport.

I haven't encountered this problem yet. It'll be funny if it happens to me after I do my wingsuit jump course. But now I know it's fun to jump with friends and new skydivers, so I don't think it will.

Girls generally don't have this problem.

lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

[billeisele 122]

I'm at Skydive Carolina, we used to do AFF and now do AFP

to answer some previous comments: yes the slots do help fill the turbine, not it's not a big money maker, yes the students are much better jumpers than with the AFF program, AFF instructors are much better at instructing than most coaches, we video every AFP jump with no extra fee, the instructor wears the camera, and debrief with video

one problem this solves is the AFF student blues, where it's hard to find someone to jump with, and they end up do solos, losing interest and leaving

as an example, yesterday I did a 17 point 3-way (rotating open accordians) with two of our recent graduates, freefly the exit and they built on me, they both have about 70 jumps now, we never got these results with AFF, the AFP program seems to work

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[floormonkey 0]

billeisele

AFF instructors are much better at instructing than most coaches,

Point of order...this is a broad generalization that speaks to the organizational level of the dz and it's coaching/instructional program, not of coaches in general.

Coaches that aren't that great are generally found where the AFF instructors aren't that great, or where the dz hasn't invested in their coaches.

I've seen many coaches that can and do regularly outperform AFFI's in every measure. I know several coaches I would rather see doing AFF/AFP then many of the rated AFFI's I see out there. Please don't group all coaches together like this.

"Student blues" also speaks to the level of organization of the dz and it's instructional staff. A dz doesn't have to leave students by themselves, they can keep them active and involved (and not charge them money) very easily.

Any problem with "student blues" lies with the dz instructional program...if it's hard for student's to find someone to jump with, the staff didn't do their job getting them acclimated to the dz.

Your example sounds like the results any dz with a good instructional and organizing program gets regularly, whether they use AFF or AFP.

[diablopilot 2]

I am harsh. So is the ground.

The answer to your question is canopy control and confidence.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[yoink 321]

3 tandems for the confidence to jump on their own? Jesus! - however did we manage for the last 40 years without it?

1 for confidence and intro to the canopy, maybe another as a first-person working canopy jump - sure, I could see that. But for a typical student 3 seems like a money making exercise to me with decreasing gains for the student.

What's the cost to the DZ (not the price of the level to the student) for a 2-instructor AFF jump, vs a tandem? I'm guessing it's probably double - they have to pay the extra instructor, it takes up another slot in the aircraft etc etc, so they make comparatively more on the tandem jumps so it's good business sense to string those as as long as possible.

I'm just not convinced it's best for the average student.

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

yoink

3 tandems for the confidence to jump on their own? Jesus! - however did we manage for the last 40 years without it?

1 for confidence and intro to the canopy, maybe another as a first-person working canopy jump - sure, I could see that. But for a typical student 3 seems like a money making exercise to me with decreasing gains for the student.

What's the cost to the DZ (not the price of the level to the student) for a 2-instructor AFF jump, vs a tandem? I'm guessing it's probably double - they have to pay the extra instructor, it takes up another slot in the aircraft etc etc, so they make comparatively more on the tandem jumps so it's good business sense to string those as as long as possible.

I'm just not convinced it's best for the average student.

Heh heh. I'm glad my DZ did AFF. I wanted to jump out of an airplane, I didn't want to be strapped to some dude. Couple hundred jumps later, I still don't want to be strapped to some dude. I'd probably end up pulling the dude (Sorry dude, I'm just so used to reaching for my hackey, there!)

It takes a lot more to qualify to be an AFFI than it does to qualify to be a coach. I could qualify to be a coach if I were so inclined, and I'm just getting to the point where I feel like I could give advice that's not completely half-assed. I want to wait until the assedness of my advice is in whole numbers prior to charging anyone for it.

I have had a couple of AFFIs ask me to look after students and have introduced myself to several new people and told them to seek me out once they get out of coaching, if they want to do belly jumps or tracking. I'm equally as happy jumping solo and will probably be there doing that anyway, but if someone comes and weasels into my jump, I'm just as happy to have the company as not. As long as I don't end up leading a 9-way tracking dive one of these days, anyway.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[DrDom 0]

I'm doing AFF at my DZ right now (just passed category B, yay!) but I need to say that tandem is cool and all, but I felt that you're training for solo flight by being strapped to someone... its just not the same. The confidence I'm getting is wonderful. I feel like when I go to catC and they "let go" I'll be OK. Admittedly my exit sucks but thats another story for another day. With that in mind, I'm not opposed to the idea of more tandems. But I feel like most of the control is still in the tandem master's hands. You arent up there alone flying a canopy, you're not falling independently. I feel like knowing I could, at any time, find myself alone in the sky (catastrophic exit losing instructors or radio failing) makes me want to be sure I know what the hell I'm doing from day 1.

Most places I've looked at require (Or at least recommend) a tandem before FJC which I do think is a GREAT thing. I know a lot of people who didnt tandem and failed CatA because its just so overwhelming. I think the first tandem is great.

Maybe the best thing would be for DZ's to consider doing both as a hybrid programme. Let students decide which way they would prefer? I know some people may not be confident at first and want a tandem and others may want to jump in with both feet.

Admittedly, we need to at least be open minded to change. If the sport didnt change we'd still be jumping round parachutes, front reserves, on static lines.

I can see where student blues can happen. I think AFF should really be more structured in terms of "what to do to 25". A good DZ though should cater to their students. They are the next generation of the sport and I'm loving the fact that the AFFI's here seem to really make huge efforts to get students involved or at least get them coaches to "play" with.

Either way, I'll take bored over terrified. Bring on the boredom ;) Right now I'm still exiting with an "Out-In-AHHHHHHHHOLYCRAPAAAAAH... oh this is fun!" ;)

You are not the contents of your wallet.

[grue 1]

FlyingRhenquest

Heh heh. I'm glad my DZ did AFF. I wanted to jump out of an airplane, I didn't want to be strapped to some dude.

That's the gist of why I'm trying to find an AFF FJC for my brother. Probably will end up taking him to see the couch freaks

cavete terrae.

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

grue

***
Heh heh. I'm glad my DZ did AFF. I wanted to jump out of an airplane, I didn't want to be strapped to some dude.

That's the gist of why I'm trying to find an AFF FJC for my brother. Probably will end up taking him to see the couch freaks

Yep... this "macho" / "better than you" / 'homophobic" / "Red Bull" attitude is exactly why so many AFF jumps which are "first jump EVER" go so badly. Dunning-Kruger is alive and well here....

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[diablopilot 2]

Your question was "what can they learn in 3 tandems that they can't learn in 2". My reply was accurate, confidence and canopy control.

I work in a program that does two tandems, but the first one is always treated as a working jump. It works fine and we don't see a need for a third most of the time.

What we've found in the industry with a tandem progression is student retention, confidence, skill, and ability is measurably higher with a tandem progression program.

It does only work however when they are treated like students, and are not progressed till they meet all objectives of the skydives.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[grue 1]

GLIDEANGLE

******
Heh heh. I'm glad my DZ did AFF. I wanted to jump out of an airplane, I didn't want to be strapped to some dude.

That's the gist of why I'm trying to find an AFF FJC for my brother. Probably will end up taking him to see the couch freaks

Yep... this "macho" / "better than you" / 'homophobic" / "Red Bull" attitude is exactly why so many AFF jumps which are "first jump EVER" go so badly. Dunning-Kruger is alive and well here....

Perhaps.

I've spoken to him about it and he'll do a tandem if he has to, but as he isn't yet sure if he wants to just do one jump or get his license, he feels that if he only does a tandem he won't have any feeling of accomplishing anything as he'd essentially just be a passenger. Never having done a tandem myself, I cannot realistically tell him otherwise.

cavete terrae.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

grue

*********
Heh heh. I'm glad my DZ did AFF. I wanted to jump out of an airplane, I didn't want to be strapped to some dude.

That's the gist of why I'm trying to find an AFF FJC for my brother. Probably will end up taking him to see the couch freaks

Yep... this "macho" / "better than you" / 'homophobic" / "Red Bull" attitude is exactly why so many AFF jumps which are "first jump EVER" go so badly. Dunning-Kruger is alive and well here....

Perhaps.

I've spoken to him about it and he'll do a tandem if he has to, but as he isn't yet sure if he wants to just do one jump or get his license, he feels that if he only does a tandem he won't have any feeling of accomplishing anything as he'd essentially just be a passenger. Never having done a tandem myself, I cannot realistically tell him otherwise.

Would you consider a student pilot receiving dual instruction in an airplane "just a passenger?"

There's a lot of stuff that can be taught on a tandem, if the student wants to learn and if the instructor wants to teach.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[grue 1]

wolfriverjoe

Would you consider a student pilot receiving dual instruction in an airplane "just a passenger?"

There's a lot of stuff that can be taught on a tandem, if the student wants to learn and if the instructor wants to teach.

It's a bit different when he knows damned well that AFF exists, even if he'd have to drive 5 hours to do it from 10,000 and a hell of a lot further to do it from 14.

It doesn't bother ME any, as long as it's not reducing numbers of incoming licensed jumpers I guess.

cavete terrae.

[DrDom 0]

No sense of accomplishment?
Aside from getting out a plane in flight with little more than nylon to get you safely home? Sounds like an accomplishment.

Yeah, you're strapped to "a dude" but so what? I mean, is anyone really that insecure? I think you get a LOT of canopy control help and confidence in a tandem.

The more I think on it, the more I think 2 tandems (both "working") is a viable alternative to pure AFF. I like my AFF but maybe that's just because I had great instructors and a good experience. But options are better than no options. If they told me I needed a second tandem, I'd sign up. At the least, you get to chat with an experienced pilot under canopy... and that's pretty cool if you ask me. Beats a radio ;)

You are not the contents of your wallet.

[potatoman 0]

Yes, I don't know what I am talking about. We do not offer that course in my country, so I haven't seen it.

So, I cannot compare AFP to AFF. But, I can raise my opinion on what another poster said, and I still think the tandems are not needed, at least not 3 of them. 1 makes sense, kinda.

The cost would just be must more for the student....and he/she could have dumped that cash into MUCH more jumps.

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

[grue 1]

DrDom

No sense of accomplishment?
Aside from getting out a plane in flight with little more than nylon to get you safely home? Sounds like an accomplishment.

HIs words, not mine.

Quote

Yeah, you're strapped to "a dude" but so what? I mean, is anyone really that insecure? I think you get a LOT of canopy control help and confidence in a tandem.

I don't think the sex of the person behind him matters one iota. He'll do a tandem if it's necessary, but just prefers the idea of AFF.

Quote

The more I think on it, the more I think 2 tandems (both "working") is a viable alternative to pure AFF. I like my AFF but maybe that's just because I had great instructors and a good experience. But options are better than no options. If they told me I needed a second tandem, I'd sign up. At the least, you get to chat with an experienced pilot under canopy... and that's pretty cool if you ask me. Beats a radio ;)

Well, I can assure you he ain't gonna follow his little brother's footsteps and enrol in a static line course…

cavete terrae.

[grue 1]

potatoman

The cost would just be must more for the student....and he/she could have dumped that cash into MUCH more jumps.

That's the killer.

It's already a damned expensive sport, do we really want to be raising the cost of entry if we don't have to?

Hell, my FJC, 25 jumps, USPA membership and A license cost me under $900. I don't mean back in the 70s, this was in the mid 2000s. If I was looking at $3k for the same thing, I wouldn't be a jumper today.

cavete terrae.

[catyduck 0]

grue

***
The cost would just be must more for the student....and he/she could have dumped that cash into MUCH more jumps.

That's the killer.

It's already a damned expensive sport, do we really want to be raising the cost of entry if we don't have to?

Hell, my FJC, 25 jumps, USPA membership and A license cost me under $900. I don't mean back in the 70s, this was in the mid 2000s. If I was looking at $3k for the same thing, I wouldn't be a jumper today.

Incidentally, my DZ offers the option of a true AFF first jump. However, it winds up being the same price as two tandems, and that's assuming you don't have to repeat it. They do strongly encourage people who want to learn to skydive, to do the tandem progression instead of AFF.

A tandem progression also works really well for people like me, who *don't* know that skydiving is something we need to do, until after we've done it. At least at my DZ, the attitude towards every first tandem is, "So, you like it? Well, that's your first step towards your solo license..." So for people who are dropping those $200 on a first tandem regardless, it doesn't really increase the cost. I do think I would have been frustrated with the time/cost of *three* tandems, though.

I'm not going to pretend I did a ton of research on different programs before starting, I basically did what the closest dropzone offers --but A license packages around here are US$2700-3000 regardless of AFF or AFP. I think static line would have been a little cheaper overall. But not 900, wow!

[malooper 0]

DrDom

The more I think on it, the more I think 2 tandems (both "working") is a viable alternative to pure AFF.

I graduated AFF pretty recently and my very first jump was a tandem, not expecting to enjoy it so much. Went back to do a training tandem so I got some great info there and loved it so I signed up for my FJC. Winds were too high after ground school so I ended up doing another tandem where I got to pull and do most of the canopy control. It was great for me. I was way overwhelmed with all the new info after FJC that it was nice to have some measure of comfort knowing I was with an experienced skydiver. We all learn differently and it just happened that I had two "training" tandems and thankful for it!

Courage is the power to let go of the familiar.
-Raymond Lindquist

[Ron 7]

Quote

yes the students are much better jumpers than with the AFF program

I'll throw the bullshit flag right about here. I was told the same line when I did SL instead of AFF. Total BS.

Quote

as an example, yesterday I did a 17 point 3-way (rotating open accordians) with two of our recent graduates, freefly the exit and they built on me, they both have about 70 jumps now, we never got these results with AFF

I did a 20 point 4way with one of my AFF students for his 20th jump.

Your students will only be as good as the effort you put into them and the effort they put forward.

Give me three equal students and I will use a different method on each of them. By 'A' License you will not be able to tell who did what program.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[davelepka 4]

Quote

Give me three equal students and I will use a different method on each of them. By 'A' License you will not be able to tell who did what program.

This is the key. The A license requirements are all the same, and regardless of the road they took to get there, every A license grad should be at the same min level of skill and knowledge.

The real difference between AFF, AFP, and even SL is the beginning. By half or 3/4 of the way through any of the programs, things all sort of even out and everyone is doing roughly the same thing.

The biggest difference between them is going to be the DZ, and how they handle things. The standard they hold their instructors to, and how closely they follow the 'book' is what's going to control the ultimate quality of the grads. A DZ with a high standard, and quality, caring instructors can produce skilled, informed, quality grads using any learning progression, even IAD!

[DrDom 0]

Certainly cost is a huge problem. If it truly is MORE then its going to drive students from it. When I told the Mrs how much it would be for my first few jumps she almost lost her mind.

Once you're cleared solo none of this matters per se, so the question is: What IS the difference?

If someone can learn from a tandem then so be it. Some people may even WANT to do it this way. Pros: Builds confidence, canopy control with an expert, direct feedback, comfort in the sky. Cons: Cost, less control over the jump. May instill LESS confidence in some people since they have major training wheels.

AFF: Pros: tried and true, cost is established, seems to work and builds good skills. CONS: maybe some people aren't ready on jump 1 or 2 for being alone out there without more direct control. Alone under canopy.

I can see it both ways. I think the paths both have validity and I think students should have a choice unless there is objective data to the contrary. As for me... I didn't care how it went, I figured after a few jumps its all gravy :)

You are not the contents of your wallet.