Currency debate

[fastphil 0]

Ron

***I think the guy with 500 in one year most likely has greater interest in the sport and is actively learning more and faster and therefore the best skydiver.

I made almost 500 my first year and to do it I jumped day and night at several DZs in several states at several boogies from many different DC-3s, several twin beech, otters and cessnas (might have been a heli too) and spent untold hours at the DZ waiting for weather to clear. I had a good feel for skydiving after the first year.

So with your 10 years and 1500 jumps (according to your profile). Is the 500 in a year jumper better than you now? Does he know as much? Does he a greater interest in the sport?


Most of my jumps were in the few years of the late 70s and very early 80s, like Wendy said (hi Wendy), so my interest now could be described as historical, but I’ve always considered skydiving a full in or full out sport. I was always worried of the occasional jumper and would steer clear of them. For myself, I bored (burned out) and found my speed elsewhere (I did pay 10 years of USPA dues), so I really can't answer your question.

However, of the occasional or student jumpers I’ve seen goof up, I never saw one hurt seriously. That includes power line landings and main opening at below 500 feet. The fatalities were typically current jumpers that jumped most weekends, had hundreds of jumps and went in without pulling the reserve; go figure.

[jonstark 8]

fastphil

The fatalities were typically current jumpers that jumped most weekends, had hundreds of jumps and went in without pulling the reserve; go figure.

Go figger Phil. Nowadays they go in with a fully functioning main over their heads and sometimes take out their compadres along the way.

[ChrisD 0]

airtwardo

I've read through the whole thread and the nagging question in my mind is WHY?

What would motivate someone to continually talk the talk, without having ever having walked the walk!?

In an arena where death & injury are very real possibilities - I just don't understand someone holding themselves up as an expert when the credentials are no where near that...it amazes me and not in a good way.




Yes Chris...this sport DOES have cliques - it has since I started, and whining about it usually means one is not 'in' the clique they want to be...well, earn it.

If the experts weren't in a class of their own, everybody would get a Superbowl ring...sorry, doesn't work that way - ya gotta put in the work first.

There are a select group of people on here I consider the 'go-to' experts when I have a question that needs clarification...Ron, Dave, Mark, DSE, Bill, Sparky are a few that come to mind - there are a handful of others...

I know their qualifications and experience... But I've been doing this almost 4 decades, I can separate the chickenshit from the bubblegum ~ a n00b probably isn't so well attuned and may take bad advice from a so called expert not knowing any better...that's what amazes me, why someone who seems relatively intelligent wouldn't understand the consequences.

PLEASE - Don't do that.

I have faith that our newbie population are a highly motivated bunch of intelligent individuals that can in fact think for themselves. They enjoy the free flow of information. The "message" is what is important , and they are capable of deciding for themselves.

On the other hand many wish to support their perceived status, their ego, at all costs, the messenger at the expense of free speech is what is most important. Anyone here can clearly see we aren't talking about any particular subject other than stifling a voice. Any voice that speaks out for free speech that is.

The incident reports over the last 50 years support the overwhelming conclusion that the more experienced jumpers are the ones that need protection, it seems the messengers are the ones we have to worry about.

Again If you want to back up thru recent history here and challenge the many times I have cut and pasted from the SIM or IRM, and some of the individuals you have quoted in the past feel free to correct anything I have said, but it's not about the content is it? And or your message isn't directed at the tens of thousands of shitty posts that hundreds have enjoyed reading and have taken the time to help and improve upon what others have said. You take your "select" group of people, who most of the time can't be bothered to personally answer newbie type questions cause your all too busy spending time coming back with off the wall one lines and inside jokes and spend some time looking in the mirror and then you can see for yourself where your motivations lie.

C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[yoink 321]

ChrisD

***I've read through the whole thread and the nagging question in my mind is WHY?

What would motivate someone to continually talk the talk, without having ever having walked the walk!?

In an arena where death & injury are very real possibilities - I just don't understand someone holding themselves up as an expert when the credentials are no where near that...it amazes me and not in a good way.

I have faith that our newbie population are a highly motivated bunch of intelligent individuals that can in fact think for themselves. They enjoy the free flow of information. The "message" is what is important , and they are capable of deciding for themselves.


C

You're wrong. You're advocating that everyone's opinion is equally valid and that's simply not the case.

The message has to be tailored to the audience who's receiving it for it to be useful.

Say a beginner came on here and asked 'I'm having trouble going forwards in high winds - help!"

They then get a whole raft of advice given to them by a dozen different posters as shown below:

1) Strap on 20 pounds of lead.
2) Fly a smaller canopy.
3) Don't jump in high winds.
4) Use your front risers.
5) Use your rear risers.
6) Fly close behind another canopy to draft them.
7) Curl up in a ball to make yourself smaller.

Some of these answers are simply wrong. Others are wrong for their experience level. Others are right.

Who should they listen to? On the internet posters can be anyone and may unknowingly give poor advice.
I could easily lie about my name, experience or jump numbers.
I might not read their profile if I'm in a rush and give advice that isn't suitable. I might simply be regurgitating stuff I've heard or read without checking to see if it's true.

How would they know, with their extremely limited experience, which are which?


So in your model - the 'the message is important' idea - they pick a post like the ones you make to follow.
It sounds good. Long and eloquent. It contains plausibly correct information that relates to stuff they've seen on the dropzone.
So they strap on the 20 pounds of lead on the next jump, yank on a front riser and kill themselves.

If you really advocate giving newbies ALL the information and letting them decide from themselves, then that includes the qualifications of the person giving it so that they can make the informed decision.
However, as we've already mentioned - it's extremely easy to lie about that on the internet... hence, the community has a responsibility to help them filter the bullshit.


It's not about ego for anyone other than you.


You obviously didn't get the message, Chris.

I'm with Sparky, I'm done trying to respond to your walls of text here.

[ChrisD 0]

Thank you for taking the time to help me out.

I'll do the best I can with my tone and this sounding experty thing, I can learn too and if you continue to help me I will listen.

C

thanks

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[airtwardo 6]

ChrisD

***I've read through the whole thread and the nagging question in my mind is WHY?

What would motivate someone to continually talk the talk, without having ever having walked the walk!?

In an arena where death & injury are very real possibilities - I just don't understand someone holding themselves up as an expert when the credentials are no where near that...it amazes me and not in a good way.




Yes Chris...this sport DOES have cliques - it has since I started, and whining about it usually means one is not 'in' the clique they want to be...well, earn it.

If the experts weren't in a class of their own, everybody would get a Superbowl ring...sorry, doesn't work that way - ya gotta put in the work first.

There are a select group of people on here I consider the 'go-to' experts when I have a question that needs clarification...Ron, Dave, Mark, DSE, Bill, Sparky are a few that come to mind - there are a handful of others...

I know their qualifications and experience... But I've been doing this almost 4 decades, I can separate the chickenshit from the bubblegum ~ a n00b probably isn't so well attuned and may take bad advice from a so called expert not knowing any better...that's what amazes me, why someone who seems relatively intelligent wouldn't understand the consequences.

PLEASE - Don't do that.

I have faith that our newbie population are a highly motivated bunch of intelligent individuals that can in fact think for themselves. They enjoy the free flow of information. The "message" is what is important , and they are capable of deciding for themselves.

On the other hand many wish to support their perceived status, their ego, at all costs, the messenger at the expense of free speech is what is most important. Anyone here can clearly see we aren't talking about any particular subject other than stifling a voice. Any voice that speaks out for free speech that is.

The incident reports over the last 50 years support the overwhelming conclusion that the more experienced jumpers are the ones that need protection, it seems the messengers are the ones we have to worry about.

Again If you want to back up thru recent history here and challenge the many times I have cut and pasted from the SIM or IRM, and some of the individuals you have quoted in the past feel free to correct anything I have said, but it's not about the content is it? And or your message isn't directed at the tens of thousands of shitty posts that hundreds have enjoyed reading and have taken the time to help and improve upon what others have said. You take your "select" group of people, who most of the time can't be bothered to personally answer newbie type questions cause your all too busy spending time coming back with off the wall one lines and inside jokes and spend some time looking in the mirror and then you can see for yourself where your motivations lie.

C

Well Chris, since you replied to my post twice, and in very differing tones, I take it I hit a nerve or something...

I replied back yesterday to your 1st one...but was using an iPad Santa gave me and somehow - my not being familiar with the hardware it went off into the ozone I guess.

To surmise ~ No, I'm not going to go back through all of your old posts - MY point was regarding someone holding themself up as something they may not be.

~well okay I did click the link on the closing loop washer thing, I dunno what the book says, but I've found that double knotting the loop isn't a good idea because it can tend to eventually pull through the grommet at the most inopportune times...


I don't know you personally and I don't know for a fact that 'misrepresenting' is what YOU are doing,
I do however find it rather odd that you continue to be so cagey about posting exactly what your numbers & experience are.

The reason I only use that small group of people as a source, is because with my interests and experience, the scope of questions I have is rather small...much of what a n00b wants & needs as far as information I already have.

I am in no way suggesting everyone on this board rely only upon a select few - there are many people on here with the credentials to answer the types of questions someone with less experience may pose.

The point I was attempting to address is the very real relationship between the message & the messenger...It's not as cut & dried as you are suggesting, and were you to remove yourself as the unfortunate object of said discussion and look objectively, you would surely see that complex relationship exists.

I say complex because there are levels of 'truth' in the information shared...cutting & pasting from the SIM would be good if everything in the sport could be learned from reading a book.

It can't - and after watching how the SIM has changed over the years I've come to understand that although it's a fairly comprehensive document, it's often incomplete & written with a flavor of legalese. It often seems to me anyway, that some of the changes in the wording are merely an attempt to 'cover' a topic with broad strokes so that it can be said it was covered.

The 'real world' answers and practical application go far beyond a paragraph or two that can often be misconstrued or bent to make a one size fits all type of statement.

You're an educated guy, you know how manuals are written - often the only true interpretation can be had when related to real world application. The SIM isn't a law book to be quoted note & verse as the final word on a subject...it's an outline to direct a path.

And until one has been down that path a few hundred times, they aren't aware of the pitfalls it may hold...where exactly they are and how to avoid them.

For example; A 'messenger' that's worked with students for a decade or two not only understands that, but they have the acquired skills gained through actual experience to not only perceive what that person is 'really asking', but to answer that query in a concise, informative and understandable manner which gets the point across successfully.

Though the 'message' that messenger gives isn't a quote from a manual, IMO it's more valuable in the dynamic environment that we play in...again, the 'levels of truth' can be significant...the manner in which that truth is relayed is also an important factor with regard to how it's absorbed.

Those kinds of things may seem insignificant...but time & experience tells me they are not.

Actual time in the trenches leads to (in most cases) a better understanding and thus better ability to relay pertinent information in a way that it's understandable & usable.



What is puzzling to me about this whole discussion is again, why so secretive about what, where & how often you jump?

I'm kind of guessing it may be because you do understand the complexities of the relationship between message & messenger...you feel you have a valid message and don't want it to be valued less because of a perceived lack of practical experience...

If that's in fact the case Chris ~ step back & take a deep breath...it is what it is.

As has been told to me more times than I can count...'Just Maybe' ~

~ You really don't know what you don't know....YET!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[ChrisD 0]

Thanks Jim,..!!!!

I am going to try to learn to be better able to not sound like a jerk. And yes I want to preserve some anonymity for a number of reasons. The complexities are in fact incredible. I am so frustrated by the economics of skydiving and I literally go insane comparing the many friends I have trying to make a living in an environment where regulations are increasing, as well as fuel prices increasing, etc,. The club environment as compared with making a living.

Thank you for your well thought out reply and thank you even more for taking the time to do so!!!

C

I'll try to do the best I can with tone and such, please send me a kind word, and I am being sincere!!!

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

I'll try to do the best I can with tone and such, please send me a kind word, and I am being sincere!!!

That's all anyone can ask!

As far as a kind word ~ I have several;

...today it's leftover pumpkin pie with chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Ron 7]

Quote

Again If you want to back up thru recent history here and challenge the many times I have cut and pasted from the SIM or IRM, and some of the individuals you have quoted in the past feel free to correct anything I have said, but it's not about the content is it?

It IS about the content.

You claimed that a student had to go back to Cat A. You said 'at a minimum' and that it was fact.

And that was pure unadulterated bullshit. I provided the link to the SIM that proved you wrong.

But that was not enough. You continued down the path of acting like an expert.

But the FACT is that you have a B license and not a single USPA instructional rating to INCLUDE coach. Yet you continued to give 'expert' opinions on the student program.

You also have given bad advice about rigging.

You and your advice are dangerous. If you loved the sport as much as you claim you would stop spouting your opinion as fact.

Quote

You take your "select" group of people, who most of the time can't be bothered to personally answer newbie type questions cause your all too busy spending time coming back with off the wall one lines and inside jokes and spend some time looking in the mirror and then you can see for yourself where your motivations lie.

The only reason I am on this forum is to protect new people from people like you.

Maybe YOU should take a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself why a guy with only a 'B' license is trying to sound like an expert.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ChrisD 0]

Thank you for taking the time to fully explain your position and how you operate. I will do the best I can in the future.
C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[riggerrob 558]

Agreed!
The message varies with the audience.
First jump students get a simplified answer.
OTOH people with more jumps than me on tiny canopies are more likely to hear "go ask Jay Moledsky."

[mjosparky 3]

riggerrob

Agreed!
The message varies with the audience.
First jump students get a simplified answer.
OTOH people with more jumps than me on tiny canopies are more likely to hear "go ask Jay Moledsky."

And what could you possibly learn from him?
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[ghost47 18]

Quote

I've read through the whole thread and the nagging question in my mind is WHY?

What would motivate someone to continually talk the talk, without having ever having walked the walk!?

In an arena where death & injury are very real possibilities - I just don't understand someone holding themselves up as an expert when the credentials are no where near that...it amazes me and not in a good way.

I would think for the same reason someone with 100 jumps starts giving advice to anyone and everyone -- they like to be looked up to. They think they know more than they do, and they don't believe that what they're saying may injure or kill someone.

It's even easier over the Internet, where the potential injured / dead aren't faces, but just posts on a message board.

[riggerrob 558]

mjosparky

***Agreed!
The message varies with the audience.
First jump students get a simplified answer.
OTOH people with more jumps than me on tiny canopies are more likely to hear "go ask Jay Moledsky."

And what could you possibly learn from him?
Sparky

..................................................................................

Jay M. has swooped thousands more ponds than me. Jay has won a few more medals than me.

[mjosparky 3]

riggerrob

******Agreed!
The message varies with the audience.
First jump students get a simplified answer.
OTOH people with more jumps than me on tiny canopies are more likely to hear "go ask Jay Moledsky."

And what could you possibly learn from him?
Sparky

..................................................................................

Jay M. has swooped thousands more ponds than me. Jay has won a few more medals than me.

But the turd only has 13,000 + jumps.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals