Packer's Liability

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

I would be more worried about making sure my kid was mature enough to understand just how much "responsibility" (s)he was taking on than just assessing the legal risk.

All the more reason I'm less than comfortable with someone who's never jumped him/herself packing for others, where they've never, even once, experienced relying on a parachute themselves to avoid otherwise-certain death.

I'm willing to make a small exception of, for example, kids of jumpers or DZOs, where they've packed for their parents and thus have a very personal stake in doing it right.

[skygypsie 2]

Andy9o8

Quote

I would be more worried about making sure my kid was mature enough to understand just how much "responsibility" (s)he was taking on than just assessing the legal risk.

All the more reason I'm less than comfortable with someone who's never jumped him/herself packing for others, where they've never, even once, experienced relying on a parachute themselves to avoid otherwise-certain death.

I'm willing to make a small exception of, for example, kids of jumpers or DZOs, where they've packed for their parents and thus have a very personal stake in doing it right.

BINGO...

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

I absolutely will not use a packer that says the above, ever. If you aren't going to pack it like you're going to jump it - stay away from my rig.

That said, JUMPING means that sometimes strange shit is gonna happen from time to time, and you just have to accept that - whether you use a packer or not.

In almost 40 year in the sport, I can count on my fingers (no thumbs) the number of times I used a packer...yes strange shit DOES happen - it just seems to happen significantly less when the person packing it also unpacks it @ terminal.

Nobody has as much vested interest in my rig working right as I do...Mike Truffer's tragic passing only served to temper my thoughts in that regard even harder.

That said - I actually DID use a packer yesterday...I have some stitches in my thumb, and packing it the 1st time about had me in tears - so I relented, and watched!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[stratostar 5]

"Pack your own rig, you get out what you put in" - Byron Black Jump Hawaii

Words to live by, been following that advice from the time I first heard him say that... he was my second dzo to hire me as a packer... while I was in 7th grade.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[monkycndo 0]

airtwardo

In almost 40 year in the sport, I can count on my fingers (no thumbs) the number of times I used a packer...

TeeHee, you used up two of yur fingers on me. I feel privileged.



Now I know your judgement is all screwed up.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[grue 1]

As much as I strongly dislike Australia's regulation-happy culture, I really like the fact that we have three ratings instead of two that relate to parachute equipment:

Packer B: can pack main canopies, including for students and tandems.
Packer A: Can pack mains and reserves
Rigger: Can pack mains, reserves, and fix shit.

It really takes the guesswork out of things, and a packer B rating is dead easy to get.

cavete terrae.

[grue 1]

ianmdrennan

Quote

Remember - you pay for a packjob, not the opening.

Bullshit, and a reason I am particular about what packers I use (when I use them, and it's rare). I expect people to take pride in their job, and do the best they can. The expressed mindset is a pet peeve of mine, and totally unacceptable IMO.

I absolutely will not use a packer that says the above, ever. If you aren't going to pack it like you're going to jump it - stay away from my rig.

That said, JUMPING means that sometimes strange shit is gonna happen from time to time, and you just have to accept that - whether you use a packer or not.

Imagine if your rigger said that line of bullshit to you regarding your reserve?

Ian

I think there's a difference between saying it, and meaning it. Hell, I'm wearing this shirt right now:

http://www.chutingstar.com/skydive/slacker-packer-t-shirt

But when I'm on duty knocking out packjobs all day at the DZ, I'm being more careful with their packjobs than I am with mine… but I might make some jokes, too

cavete terrae.

[jumpgump 0]

I paid a packer $25 to pack an SF-10A rig (military round canopy). When I picked my rig up that afternoon I said, "Thank you."

She laughed and replied, "I hope it opens!"

I didn't think it was very funny, and I certainly didn't have a good feeling about the next jump.

[Andy9o8 0]

jumpgump

I paid a packer $25 to pack an SF-10A rig (military round canopy). When I picked my rig up that afternoon I said, "Thank you."

She laughed and replied, "I hope it opens!"

I didn't think it was very funny, and I certainly didn't have a good feeling about the next jump.

would you have been happier if she'd said "break a leg? " Jeez, tough audience.

[chuckakers 370]

Andy9o8

***I paid a packer $25 to pack an SF-10A rig (military round canopy). When I picked my rig up that afternoon I said, "Thank you."

She laughed and replied, "I hope it opens!"

I didn't think it was very funny, and I certainly didn't have a good feeling about the next jump.

would you have been happier if she'd said "break a leg? " Jeez, tough audience.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[stratostar 5]

Quote

I paid a packer $25 to pack an SF-10A rig

A fool and their money soon part ways....

Quote

She laughed and replied, "I hope it opens!"

I didn't think it was very funny, and I certainly didn't have a good feeling about the next jump.

I've said the very same thing a few times during vintage round jumps... only difference was I said it to the crowd watching, not the jumpers... My thoughts are: if you can't pack your own round to jump it, maybe you should not be jumping it.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Andy9o8 0]

stratostar

Quote

I paid a packer $25 to pack an SF-10A rig

A fool and their money soon part ways....

***She laughed and replied, "I hope it opens!"

I didn't think it was very funny, and I certainly didn't have a good feeling about the next jump.

I've said the very same thing a few times during vintage round jumps... only difference was I said it to the crowd watching, not the jumpers... My thoughts are: if you can't pack your own round to jump it, maybe you should not be jumping it.

Packing a round is so easy, even a caveman can do it.

[skygypsie 2]

grue

As much as I strongly dislike Australia's regulation-happy culture, I really like the fact that we have three ratings instead of two that relate to parachute equipment:

Packer B: can pack main canopies, including for students and tandems.
Packer A: Can pack mains and reserves
Rigger: Can pack mains, reserves, and fix shit.
It really takes the guesswork out of things, and a packer B rating is dead easy to get.

Might really be starting up a whole lotta raucaus here, but I totally agree.

"PACKERS" the staffing position kind of Packers, should have to qualify. (tandem, student rigs)

I don't mean just take a course, pack a few & all go to go !

I'm talking about certified & deemed to require recertification.

If Vector-Sigma rigs are jumped, need to test out on those.

If Strong, test out on those.

Endorsements required, before packing is allowed.

If too many errors occur (proven to be direct cause of cutaways, incident, injury, etc), card is pulled.

It wouldn't need to cost the Packer candidate a dime, other then the purchase of an 'official' card, staffing dz rigger could stamp each year.

[Krip 2]

To many errors would drive the jumpers away.

One Jump Wonder

[mark 102]

skygypsie

"PACKERS" the staffing position kind of Packers, should have to qualify. (tandem, student rigs)

I don't mean just take a course, pack a few & all go to go !

I'm talking about certified & deemed to require recertification.

< snip >

If too many errors occur (proven to be direct cause of cutaways, incident, injury, etc), card is pulled.

It wouldn't need to cost the Packer candidate a dime, other then the purchase of an 'official' card, staffing dz rigger could stamp each year.

Who would be doing the certifying, recertifying, and card pulling?

Mark

[skygypsie 2]

Krip

To many errors would drive the jumpers away.

good point !

[skygypsie 2]

mark

***"PACKERS" the staffing position kind of Packers, should have to qualify. (tandem, student rigs)

I don't mean just take a course, pack a few & all go to go !

I'm talking about certified & deemed to require recertification.

< snip >

If too many errors occur (proven to be direct cause of cutaways, incident, injury, etc), card is pulled.

It wouldn't need to cost the Packer candidate a dime, other then the purchase of an 'official' card, staffing dz rigger could stamp each year.

Who would be doing the certifying, recertifying, and card pulling?

Mark
S & TA &/ or Staff Rigger...
"under direct supervision of Senior/ Master Rigger..."

[Fast 0]

ianmdrennan

Quote

Remember - you pay for a packjob, not the opening.

Bullshit, and a reason I am particular about what packers I use (when I use them, and it's rare). I expect people to take pride in their job, and do the best they can. The expressed mindset is a pet peeve of mine, and totally unacceptable IMO.

I absolutely will not use a packer that says the above, ever. If you aren't going to pack it like you're going to jump it - stay away from my rig.

That said, JUMPING means that sometimes strange shit is gonna happen from time to time, and you just have to accept that - whether you use a packer or not.

Imagine if your rigger said that line of bullshit to you regarding your reserve?

Ian

Absolutely. This is not something I tolerate. If you can't consistently pack nice openings, you're not getting my money. I am paying a fair price for work that I expect to be as good as my own. Period.

tristansdad

Packer packs your main and it malfunctions. Cut it away and use the other parachute. The only issue I can see is a financial one if you chop your shit into a swamp never to be seen again. Then you would have to have video footage that shows beyond a doubt it was packer error. Good luck with that. If someone rides a malfunction to low or takes it all the way down well tough shit. You failed to do what you were trained to do.

No. You're thinking too narrowly, this isn't how liability works and there is more that can go wrong other than malfunctions. I am feeling some deja vu here, I think I have had to point this out before. If as a packer you pack a hard opening and the TI goes unconscious, you may be on the hook for that. It becomes a question of: is what you did putting the nylon in the bag what cause the hard opening and who can prove that or not. If the canopy malfunctions and then the reserve malfunctions, everyone up the chain has a level of exposure.

Andy9o8

All the more reason I'm less than comfortable with someone who's never jumped him/herself packing for others, where they've never, even once, experienced relying on a parachute themselves to avoid otherwise-certain death.

I'm willing to make a small exception of, for example, kids of jumpers or DZOs, where they've packed for their parents and thus have a very personal stake in doing it right.

If it were only that simple. Where I am at, half my packing staff last year wasn't even old enough to jump. We don't have enough skydivers interested in doing the job to keep the DZ running.

skygypsie

"PACKERS" the staffing position kind of Packers, should have to qualify. (tandem, student rigs)

Short of the FAA changing the rules, as a formality it won't happen. In practice though, if your DZ isn't qualifying it's staff/sport packers that seems pretty odd/bad. Some of the biggest DZs require a riggers ticket to pack at all.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[mark 102]

skygypsie

***
Who would be doing the certifying, recertifying, and card pulling?

Mark

Staff Rigger...
"under direct supervision of Senior/ Master Rigger..."

Why can't the supervising rigger do local certifying and card-pulling already? "Direct supervision" includes taking responsibility for the result, which means packers working under supervision must either (a) take direction from the supervising rigger, or (b) walk.

What are you proposing that doesn't already exist?

Mark

[Andy9o8 0]

Fast

***
All the more reason I'm less than comfortable with someone who's never jumped him/herself packing for others, where they've never, even once, experienced relying on a parachute themselves to avoid otherwise-certain death.

I'm willing to make a small exception of, for example, kids of jumpers or DZOs, where they've packed for their parents and thus have a very personal stake in doing it right.

If it were only that simple. Where I am at, half my packing staff last year wasn't even old enough to jump. We don't have enough skydivers interested in doing the job to keep the DZ running.


I understand the practicality you refer to, but I only have limited sympathy for it. Economics, convenience, or even necessity doesn't make it right. Back in The Day, a lot of small DZs used to let 50-jump wonders who didn't have jumpmaster ratings put out S/L students under a similar rationale. It might have been seen as necessary, but that didn't make it right. More to the point (since analogies are always imperfect): somehow, the idea slightly bugs me of someone packing others' rigs who wouldn't be willing to stand by his pack jobs by jumping a couple randomly-selected ones himself.

[skygypsie 2]

mark

******
Who would be doing the certifying, recertifying, and card pulling?

Mark

Staff Rigger...
"under direct supervision of Senior/ Master Rigger..."

Why can't the supervising rigger do local certifying and card-pulling already? "Direct supervision" includes taking responsibility for the result, which means packers working under supervision must either (a) take direction from the supervising rigger, or (b) walk.

What are you proposing that doesn't already exist?

Mark
...reality...not just practical procedures backed by versed "technically" !

[skyjumpenfool 2]

mark

Who would be doing the certifying, recertifying, and card pulling?

Mark

Uhmmm? You!

And, Marks right. Don't reinvent the wheel. Unless you want to pay more for pack jobs. Yes, the cost of the training/certifying/retraining/etc. would get passed down to the customer.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[airtwardo 6]

skyjumpenfool

***
Who would be doing the certifying, recertifying, and card pulling?

Mark

Uhmmm? You!

And, Marks right. Don't reinvent the wheel. Unless you want to pay more for pack jobs. Yes, the cost of the training/certifying/retraining/etc. would get passed down to the customer.


Not really... it's labor with the only 'overhead' being rubberbands & pull-up cords.

If the person doing it needs to spend some $ to get a certification, that's on them as the cost of doing business.

If a packer is as competent as they SHOULD be - getting it is no big deal...look at it like a cover charge to get in an exclusive club. Pay a few bucks & keep out the riff raff!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[mark 102]

skygypsie

***What are you proposing that doesn't already exist?

...reality...not just practical procedures backed by versed "technically" !

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Could you say it another way?

Mark

[Southern_Man 0]

airtwardo

******
Who would be doing the certifying, recertifying, and card pulling?

Mark

Uhmmm? You!

And, Marks right. Don't reinvent the wheel. Unless you want to pay more for pack jobs. Yes, the cost of the training/certifying/retraining/etc. would get passed down to the customer.


Not really... it's labor with the only 'overhead' being rubberbands & pull-up cords.

If the person doing it needs to spend some $ to get a certification, that's on them as the cost of doing business.

If a packer is as competent as they SHOULD be - getting it is no big deal...look at it like a cover charge to get in an exclusive club. Pay a few bucks & keep out the riff raff!

Bah, I'm skeptical of this certification idea. USPA is not in the business of this sort of certification. That only leaves the FAA. That would not be low cost for anybody and would get passed on. Absent that kind of bureaucracy it is local issue. Supervising rigger is responsible for those packing under his supervision. This should not be a regulation that is ignored.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"