stitch 0 #1 May 3, 2006 I saw this mentioned in another thread in another forum. Are there dropzones that allow 182 observer rides for non-jumpers? I have limited experience with the 182, but everyone I've been in the pilot has on an emergency parachute.I figure this is due to the 182's record concerning pre-mature deployments,etc. Along with the tight-space,lack of proper passenger seating, and proximity to the door, I wouldn't figure observer rides would be a good idea."No cookies for you"- GFD "I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65 Don't be a "Racer Hater" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrickyDicky 0 #2 May 3, 2006 QuoteI saw this mentioned in another thread in another forum. Are there dropzones that allow 182 observer rides for non-jumpers? I have limited experience with the 182, but everyone I've been in the pilot has on an emergency parachute.I figure this is due to the 182's record concerning pre-mature deployments,etc. Along with the tight-space,lack of proper passenger seating, and proximity to the door, I wouldn't figure observer rides would be a good idea. I think you just answered your own question. Plus you'd have to put the 2nd seat in, which then loses you a space for the jumper and it makes it hard for anyone to get out the door. And as for bail out rigs and prematures... Id have to say that 182s and 206s are probably the most proven skydiving aircraft, and have probably flown way way more lifts than any other aircraft. Pilot wear bail out rigs because they want to. At my old DZ the pilot hasnt worn a bail out rig since they got it (afaik), and that was in 1978. Theyve never had a aircraft endangering incident. UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kwmontreal 0 #3 May 3, 2006 We allow observer rides if we have an empty slot (182/206). It requires a total briefing and some basic instruction on operations/canopy control/emergency procedures. Following all this they have to wait and see if we have an empty slot. When and if they do get the opportunity, they wear a staticline rig, and, have to practice a few emergency exits. Its actually a long process and no guarantees on getting the ride. Jump Safe. Kent----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------JUMP SAFE! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #4 May 3, 2006 QuoteWe allow observer rides if we have an empty slot (182/206). It requires a total briefing and some basic instruction on operations/canopy control/emergency procedures. Following all this they have to wait and see if we have an empty slot. When and if they do get the opportunity, they wear a staticline rig, and, have to practice a few emergency exits. Its actually a long process and no guarantees on getting the ride. *** Just like 30 years ago when I took mine! I sat of the floor with my back to the panel, no rig...no door...no seat-belt. My briefing by the pilot consisted of: Everything should be alright, but if ya see ME head toward the door... Ya better grab for all the gusto you can get! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kwmontreal 0 #5 May 3, 2006 Sounds like some of the stories I have listened to from the early days!! It seems life was exciting back in the seventies and eighties!! JUMP SAFE! kENT----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------JUMP SAFE! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #6 May 3, 2006 QuoteSounds like some of the stories I have listened to from the early days!! It seems life was exciting back in the seventies and eighties!! JUMP SAFE! kENT *** Let's just say "Safety Meetings" had a whole different connotation back then...! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stitch 0 #7 May 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteSounds like some of the stories I have listened to from the early days!! It seems life was exciting back in the seventies and eighties!! JUMP SAFE! kENT *** Let's just say "Safety Meetings" had a whole different connotation back then...!"No cookies for you"- GFD "I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65 Don't be a "Racer Hater" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #8 May 3, 2006 Nothing wrong with putting observers in a 182. We routinely put non-jumping observers right next to the door with an emergency rig. We make them sign a waiver and give them a briefing on emergency procedures and send them up. They're told to keep the seat (floor) belt on, so they're not going anywhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TFFTM 1 #9 May 3, 2006 We allow them and sometimes encourage them if there is space on the plane. They have to wear a pilot bailout rig and go through some instruction. They sit on the floor behind the pilot and have to remain there until the door is closed and latched. BSBD Home of the Alabama Gang Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #10 May 3, 2006 QuoteNothing wrong with putting observers in a 182. We routinely put non-jumping observers right next to the door with an emergency rig. We make them sign a waiver and give them a briefing on emergency procedures and send them up. They're told to keep the seat (floor) belt on, so they're not going anywhere. Only variation I would mention to this was at one DZ where they did not have spare PEP's, so they used a student rig with the main PC shoved way in and briefed the observer to only use the reserve. Personally, I got a great kick out of doing a back-flip off the step after talking with the observer from the step... Its as close to directly involved as they can get without getting out.!! Though you have reminded me of another related thread I had wanted to start... JW JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #11 May 3, 2006 Quote Nothing wrong with putting observers in a 182. FAR 91.107(a)(3) requires each person to occupy an approved seat. There is an exception for using the floor of the aircraft as a seat, "provided that the person is on board for the purpose of engaging in sport parachuting." So to legally carry an observer seated on the floor of the jump plane, you'd have to convince a skeptical FAA inspector that "observing" is the same as "engaging in" sport parachuting. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #12 May 4, 2006 i have been on a load on our Cessna 195 where there was an observer. she sat on the floor next to the pilot, seatbelt on the entire ride (that i saw anyways, cant say for sure on the way down but assuming as the pilot is a safety nut in a good way), and wore a sport rig that she was instructed in the use of in case of an emergency. although she had no skydives, she was dating a skydiver so she had a little more general knowledge than the average whuffo... As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
packing_jarrett 0 #13 May 4, 2006 yeah they can sit where ever they want... not much of a choice they always seem to sit next to the pilot with the back towards the dash. seatbelt on all the time with a rig. briefing usually takes less then a minute: in case of emerg. jump out pull the silver. grab toggles and bring them at about shoulder hieghth (its usually a sport rig). we just climb over them.Na' Cho' Cheese Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #14 May 4, 2006 Quotei have been on a load on our Cessna 195 where there was an observer. she sat on the floor next to the pilot, seatbelt on the entire ride (that i saw anyways, cant say for sure on the way down but assuming as the pilot is a safety nut in a good way), and wore a sport rig that she was instructed in the use of in case of an emergency. although she had no skydives, she was dating a skydiver so she had a little more general knowledge than the average whuffo... How much training did you have before you sat next to an open door? Because it is done does not make it legal or right.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
L.O. 0 #15 May 4, 2006 Any time you intend to open the door of an aircraft in flight all occupant must wear an approved and current parachute. If your Pilot or observer is not wearing a rig they are in violation of federal law. HPDBs, I hate those guys. AFB, charter member. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #16 May 4, 2006 Quote Any time you intend to open the door of an aircraft in flight all occupant must wear an approved and current parachute. If your Pilot or observer is not wearing a rig they are in violation of federal law. Not true, and you are unable to cite any such federal law. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #17 May 4, 2006 Our insurance company discourages observers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #18 May 4, 2006 QuoteQuote Any time you intend to open the door of an aircraft in flight all occupant must wear an approved and current parachute. If your Pilot or observer is not wearing a rig they are in violation of federal law. Not true, and you are unable to cite any such federal law. Mark No more calls, we have a winner.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #19 May 5, 2006 QuoteQuote Any time you intend to open the door of an aircraft in flight all occupant must wear an approved and current parachute. If your Pilot or observer is not wearing a rig they are in violation of federal law. Not true, and you are unable to cite any such federal law. Mark Unless it is specified in the STC, then it would be in violation of the STC and therefore an FAR violation... But as I have never actually read the STC's, I don't know if it is in there... (See the other related thread on this question) JimAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
L.O. 0 #20 May 5, 2006 Oh Mark my friend I am afraid you stepped on the wrong toes today. For a 182 and most aircraft smaller then a DHC-6 it is in the STC under special provisions. It is included on some larger aircraft STCs and is highly dependent on the authorizing FSDO in those cases. Since the STC is an approved document. Violating the provissions there in stated, would render the aircraft non airworthy. and put you in violation. Maybe you should look stuff up next time. I am sorry I get so heated about pilot stuff, I just hate it when people tell me I am wrong in a not so nice way. If you need anymore help with you FARs let me know, I try. Have a good day all.HPDBs, I hate those guys. AFB, charter member. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #21 May 5, 2006 Quote How about that for citing the law BEAHCH. I can and I did. And the FAR you cited was... what? Is a helicopter an aircraft? May an R22 or R44 be flown with the doors removed? Do the occupants have to wear parachutes when the doors are removed? Is a PA-18 Super Cub an aircraft? May it be flown with the doors open without parachutes being required? Quote I am sorry I get so heated about pilot stuff, I just hate it when people who don't have the knowledge tell me I am wrong in a not so nice way. Me, too. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
L.O. 0 #22 May 5, 2006 Mark!! I didn't realize who I was talking to. Danm, sorry about that. I bow down before your rigging knowledge (you are the man), but I just had to make sure the other stuff was corrected. It is a saftey issue and I knew I was correct. I hope I didn't stomp to hard.HPDBs, I hate those guys. AFB, charter member. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
L.O. 0 #23 May 5, 2006 Sorry again, I did phrase that poorly. I know the exceptions, I was just talking about 182s since that was the topic here. I did make my post way to broad. Thanks for the clarification. I said law not FAR and I did say most not all.HPDBs, I hate those guys. AFB, charter member. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #24 May 5, 2006 QuoteDamn, sorry about that. I just had to make sure the other stuff was corrected. It is a safety issue and I knew I was correct. I hope I didn't stomp to hard. No problem.The statement I responded to was the blanket statement that all door-open/removed operations legally required all occupants to wear parachutes. I agree that it's good safety practice for all occupants to wear parachutes in jump planes. Still, you (and Scott, too, for that matter) are incorrect in claiming it is an FAR requirement. I took all my helicopter check rides in a doors-off R22. We didn't wear parachutes. (The inspector did get out on the ground to observe my auto-rotation to touch-down, though.) And I've done plenty of glider tows and flight instruction in doors-open J-3 and PA-18 Cubs. If you talk to Scott again, instead of asking if parachutes are required for jump pilots, ask him about whether its okay to fly those aircraft with the doors open. If you look in the Cessna 208 flight manual, you'll find provisions for flight with the door removed. No STC required, wind deflector must be installed. The manual is silent on the issue of parachutes required, so in the absence of an FAR to that effect, no parachutes are required. Need more citations? Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #25 May 5, 2006 QuoteAny time you intend to open the door of an aircraft in flight all occupant must wear an approved and current parachute. QuoteI just hate it when people tell me I am wrong in a not so nice way. I am not sure there is a nice way to put this, but you are wrong. The FAR's only address the use of a parachute when doing aerobatics with a passenger aboard. As for STC’s, I have seen several that do not mention the use of a parachute when operating with the door off on everything from DC-3’s to a C-172. But as was posted earlier it is not the smart thing to do. (not intended to step on your toes)My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
