I am moving to the UK, need some advice

[gowlerk 2,132]

Quote

The working group found that there was sufficient empirical evidence to prove that Ab Initio solo students were at more risk, and the maximum age for training was kept at 55.

This is what is meant by "nanny state". Skydiving is an adult sport. Adults should be informed of the risks and then make their own decisions. There is no need of a "committee". Your working group would not be able to show a clear line at 55. or 50, or 60. Because there is not one. People are individuals, not averages.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[obelixtim 149]

gowlerk

Quote

The working group found that there was sufficient empirical evidence to prove that Ab Initio solo students were at more risk, and the maximum age for training was kept at 55.

This is what is meant by "nanny state". Skydiving is an adult sport. Adults should be informed of the risks and then make their own decisions. There is no need of a "committee". Your working group would not be able to show a clear line at 55. or 50, or 60. Because there is not one. People are individuals, not averages.

Exactly.

Do any other countries have this rule?

Either British 55 year olds are somehow worse than 55 year olds from other nations, or BPA is out of step with the norm. It doesn't seem to be an issue elsewhere.

I suspect one of the delegates did have an isolated incident with an older trainee, and made such a big thing of it that the others followed his line of reasoning...like sheep.

Baaaaaaaa!!!

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[freekflyguy 0]

gowlerk

Quote

The working group found that there was sufficient empirical evidence to prove that Ab Initio solo students were at more risk, and the maximum age for training was kept at 55.

This is what is meant by "nanny state". Skydiving is an adult sport. Adults should be informed of the risks and then make their own decisions. There is no need of a "committee". Your working group would not be able to show a clear line at 55. or 50, or 60. Because there is not one. People are individuals, not averages.

You may be right abo being a nanny state, unfortunately the CAA look on it very poorly when a parachutist dies, and even more so if its a solo student or god forbid a tandem pair.

We have a duty of care that isn't present (or doesn't seem to be ) in the USA or some other countries which is why we have these rules.

But hey, its also why we don't kill many students or tandems, so I for one (being a DZO and responsible for such things) am more than happy with it.

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

[freekflyguy 0]

obelixtim

***

Quote

The working group found that there was sufficient empirical evidence to prove that Ab Initio solo students were at more risk, and the maximum age for training was kept at 55.

This is what is meant by "nanny state". Skydiving is an adult sport. Adults should be informed of the risks and then make their own decisions. There is no need of a "committee". Your working group would not be able to show a clear line at 55. or 50, or 60. Because there is not one. People are individuals, not averages.

Exactly.

Do any other countries have this rule?

Either British 55 year olds are somehow worse than 55 year olds from other nations, or BPA is out of step with the norm. It doesn't seem to be an issue elsewhere.

I suspect one of the delegates did have an isolated incident with an older trainee, and made such a big thing of it that the others followed his line of reasoning...like sheep.

Baaaaaaaa!!!

Nope, you're wrong, they took advice from the BPA medical advisor and data collected over a number of years, here is an extract from the STC minutes regarding age limits:

"The Working Group had recommended that the following age restrictions should remain:
a. 16 years old. Minimum age for parachuting. This should remain as it is based on the
individual’s capacity to make decisions. It is commonly accepted in law that persons
under the age of sixteen are not capable of making the types of decisions that would be
required to parachute safely.
b. 16 - 17 years old. Requires parental/guardian consent. This should remain for the above
(a) reasons as not all sixteen to eighteen year olds have that capacity.
c. 55 years old. The maximum age for anyone to start ‘solo’ parachuting. This had already
been discussed by STC. It was decided to keep this restriction as it was adopted
following a number of fatal accidents involving students who were over that age when
they were trained.
d. 40 years old. Above this age all parachutists require a Doctor’s certificate. Solo students
and experienced jumpers should remain unchanged, with a review to be carried out once
the new Tandem Student medicals been running for a number of months. This will prove
the system whilst without increasing risk as Tandem Students are fully under the control
of a qualified instructor throughout their descent."

I suspect Obelixtim, you either have an axe to grind with the BPA, or are blindly criticizing us for making safety decisions which you either don't agree with, or don't understand.

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

[gowlerk 2,132]

Quote

I suspect Obelixtim, you either have an axe to grind with the BPA, or are blindly criticizing us for making safety decisions which you either don't agree with, or don't understand.

It looks more to me like you have an axe to grind or are "blindly criticizing" him. Deciding for 56 year old adults that they are too risky to train is something only the most hidebound of bureaucrats would even attempt to justify. He can not understand this nonsensical ruling because it makes no sense at all. Therefore he suspects an ulterior motive.

I on the other hand do not. BPA is just doing this because they have the power and power must be used. No one is acting in a corrupt way here. Just flexing the very old muscles. BPA would be better off requiring anyone over 55 to resign from their BoD.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[freekflyguy 0]

gowlerk

Quote

I suspect Obelixtim, you either have an axe to grind with the BPA, or are blindly criticizing us for making safety decisions which you either don't agree with, or don't understand.

It looks more to me like you have an axe to grind or are "blindly criticizing" him. Deciding for 56 year old adults that they are too risky to train is something only the most hidebound of bureaucrats would even attempt to justify. He can not understand this nonsensical ruling because it makes no sense at all. Therefore he suspects an ulterior motive.

I on the other hand do not. BPA is just doing this because they have the power and power must be used. No one is acting in a corrupt way here. Just flexing the very old muscles. BPA would be better off requiring anyone over 55 to resign from their BoD.

OK first lets clear up a few things here that you seem confused about.

The BPA is a membership organisation, which elects a Council annually, these council members form the board of directors, there are also a number of sub committees which report to the Council, because somewhere along the way people realised that Council may not have the necessary knowledge and skill set to be an all powerful cabal.

One of these sub committees, is the Safety and Training Committee, made up of all the Chief Instructors in the UK, a CI is, I believe similar to a USPA STA. We sit every 2 months and discuss all things Safety and Training related. It is STC who are responsible for setting and enforcing the rules and regulations for parachuting in the UK, not Council (or the BoD as you refer), we are the people who are directly involved in skydiving on a day to day basis and are, I would argue, best placed to decide what is or isn't safe practice.

The decision to maintain the maximum age for Ab Initio students was made by a working group made up of members of STC, remember them, the people who deliver the training day in day out. The working group made their recommendation based on advice from a medical professional, and data supporting the extra risk of injury or death for Ab Initio students over the age of 55.

Now, the CAA are responsible for all aviation matters in the UK, and we have much different rules regarding the use of airspace especially compared to the USA. The CAA really do not like it when people are injured or killed especially when they are third parties. STC have to weigh up the way we carry out our sport against the very real possibility of the CAA either imposing even greater restrictions on us or stopping skydiving altogether.

It was not very long ago that the CAA were on the verge of stopping display parachuting in the UK after a number of incidents, if we had as many display cock ups as you have in the US there wouldn't be display parachuting in the UK. We have a fairly fine line to tread, and as such we do have a more restrictive system, I would argue though that especially where tandems are concerned we have a much safer system.

Also in the UK, you cannot waive your rights, which means it is beholden to the DZO/CI to ensure every reasonable action is taken to ensure parachuting is conducted as safely as possible.

So the BPA isn't just doing it because they have the power, it is actually the CI's who see what happens on a daily basis that make these rules, and no one is flexing very old muscles, out of the 29 DZ's in the UK only 7 have CI's that are over 50, and probably 4 of those are under 55.

Some people just can't comprehend that things are different in the UK because the country is a nanny state, not the BPA.

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

[gowlerk 2,132]

Quote

Some people just can't comprehend that things are different in the UK because the country is a nanny state, not the BPA.

It took a lot of typing for you to get there. But in the end it is both literally and figuratively the bottom line. And I do agree with you completely on that point.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Phil1111 1,108]

freekflyguy

The working group made their recommendation based on advice from a medical professional, and data supporting the extra risk of injury or death for Ab Initio students over the age of 55....

The CAA really do not like it when people are injured or killed especially when they are third parties. STC have to weigh up the way we carry out our sport against the very real possibility of the CAA either imposing even greater restrictions on us or stopping skydiving altogether.

It was not very long ago that the CAA were on the verge of stopping display parachuting in the UK after a number of incidents, if we had as many display cock ups as you have in the US there wouldn't be display parachuting in the UK..

Also in the UK, you cannot waive your rights, which means it is beholden to the DZO/CI to ensure every reasonable action is taken to ensure parachuting is conducted as safely as possible.

So the BPA isn't just doing it because they have the power, it is actually the CI's who see what happens on a daily basis that make these rules, and no one is flexing very old muscles, out of the 29 DZ's in the UK only 7 have CI's that are over 50, and probably 4 of those are under 55.

Some people just can't comprehend that things are different in the UK because the country is a nanny state, not the BPA.

Saving the entire existence of the sport in a state filled with delusions of injury and death?

1. Yet the UK government allows scuba diving, mountain climbing, rebreather diving and hang gliding. The age restrictions for those sports are?

2.The UK Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) has announced planned changes to medical requirements for PPL and NPPL holders to be introduced in late summer 2016. "After the introduction date, the medical requirement for UK PPL and NPPL licence holders, and private balloon pilots, will be to meet the same standard as that required to hold a DVLA Group 1 Ordinary Driving Licence and pilots will be able to complete a form on the CAA website to declare that they meet the DVLA medical standard. Existing medical options (for example a UK declaration with GP counter signature) will remain available.

Under the changes, which will be published in a new version of the UK Air Navigation Order, pilots under age 70 will need to complete the CAA website form once, while pilots over 70 must confirm their declaration every three years."
http://www.pilotweb.aero/news/caa_to_change_private_pilot_medical_requirements_1_4530089

So the CAA, UK is relaxing age and medical requirements for pilots.

3. Third parties killed or injured? So over 55, skydiving students are killing people on the ground or in the air due to age related physical or mental incapacitates? Your committees statistical references are?

4. US, Canadian, French, etc. trial lawyers have set aside "waiver of rights" documents for decades already.

Get off the royal horse or at least recognize that your bridle is attached to the ass of the horse.Try the head, Its where the brains are. Saving the sport from the airway of FAA inspired reckless, unregulated, "cock-up's".

Sure.

[Joellercoaster 6]

To the OP:

If you're moving to the UK and want to skydive, here is the best advice I can give you:

Don't mention it on DZ.com.

A crowd of old people (some of whom jump here, most of whom don't) will immediately pile into your thread and make it all about them, like all the other threads they have destroyed in the past.

They'll fill your thread with shit. Shit that has nothing to do with your questions and doesn't affect you, including but not limited to:

- How rude the DZOs used to be when they used to jump in the 90s
- That the UK is a nanny state, unlike the freedom-loving Americas
- That the FS1 requirement is a scam of some kind
- That 55-year-olds are/are not amazing skydivers
- That the BPA is an old-boys' club of stuffy blazer types
- That Spain is awesome, like the freedom-loving Americas

A similar-sized group of Brits will then jump in and counter these points. Then the original crew will come back in. And so on. Round and round.

This will be allowed to happen not because the UK is a bad place to jump (it is not), but principally because General Skydiving Discussion (like Safety and Training) is effectively unmoderated, and also because at least one of the regular participants is a moderator anyway.

Nothing new will be said - all these threads have been done before, and it's not really about the thread, it's about the "participants". The point is, your question and its useful answers (there will be some in there somewhere!) will be totally drowned out by the sound, as the song goes, of old men grinding axes.

Now that you know how dz.com works, you can apply this knowledge to such fascinating topics as:

- Choosing a main canopy (answer: Jump a Racer!)
- Small-format cameras (oppression vs suicide!)
- Learning to swoop (my Katana is awesome! Did I mention I jump a Katana?)
- DZ Cooper (screeeeeeeeeeeeeeekkhkhhhhhhNO CARRIER)

You're welcome.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[SkydiverNigel 1]

Nicely put! ;-))

[adamUK 3]

The best comment this month and sums up dz.com nicely.

[Phil1111 1,108]

Joellercoaster

To the OP:

If you're moving to the UK and want to skydive, here is the best advice I can give you:

Don't mention it on DZ.com.

A crowd of old people (some of whom jump here, most of whom don't) will immediately pile into your thread and make it all about them, like all the other threads they have destroyed in the past.

They'll fill your thread with shit. Shit that has nothing to do with your questions and doesn't affect you, including but not limited to:

- How rude the DZOs used to be when they used to jump in the 90s
- That the UK is a nanny state, unlike the freedom-loving Americas
- That the FS1 requirement is a scam of some kind
- That 55-year-olds are/are not amazing skydivers
- That the BPA is an old-boys' club of stuffy blazer types
- That Spain is awesome, like the freedom-loving Americas

A similar-sized group of Brits will then jump in and counter these points. Then the original crew will come back in. And so on. Round and round.

This will be allowed to happen not because the UK is a bad place to jump (it is not), but principally because General Skydiving Discussion (like Safety and Training) is effectively unmoderated, and also because at least one of the regular participants is a moderator anyway.

Nothing new will be said - all these threads have been done before, and it's not really about the thread, it's about the "participants". The point is, your question and its useful answers (there will be some in there somewhere!) will be totally drowned out by the sound, as the song goes, of old men grinding axes.

Now that you know how dz.com works, you can apply this knowledge to such fascinating topics as:

- Choosing a main canopy (answer: Jump a Racer!)
- Small-format cameras (oppression vs suicide!)
- Learning to swoop (my Katana is awesome! Did I mention I jump a Katana?)
- DZ Cooper (screeeeeeeeeeeeeeekkhkhhhhhhNO CARRIER)

You're welcome.

Never jumped in the UK, would like to. At least the UK political situation is clearer when it comes to the CAA, pandering, self congratulations and the BPA.

With regards to the sensitivities of some UK jumpers:
All right, all right, I apologize.
BPA: You’re really sorry!
I’m really really sorry, I apologize unreservedly.
BPA: You take it back!
I do, I offer a complete and utter retraction. The imputation was totally without basis in fact, and was in no way fair comment, and was motivated purely by malice, and I deeply regret any distress that my comments may have caused you, or your family, and I hereby undertake not to repeat any such slander at any time in the future.
BPA: OK

[obelixtim 149]

freekflyguy

******

Quote

The working group found that there was sufficient empirical evidence to prove that Ab Initio solo students were at more risk, and the maximum age for training was kept at 55.

This is what is meant by "nanny state". Skydiving is an adult sport. Adults should be informed of the risks and then make their own decisions. There is no need of a "committee". Your working group would not be able to show a clear line at 55. or 50, or 60. Because there is not one. People are individuals, not averages.

Exactly.

Do any other countries have this rule?

Either British 55 year olds are somehow worse than 55 year olds from other nations, or BPA is out of step with the norm. It doesn't seem to be an issue elsewhere.

I suspect one of the delegates did have an isolated incident with an older trainee, and made such a big thing of it that the others followed his line of reasoning...like sheep.

Baaaaaaaa!!!

Nope, you're wrong, they took advice from the BPA medical advisor and data collected over a number of years, here is an extract from the STC minutes regarding age limits:

"The Working Group had recommended that the following age restrictions should remain:
a. 16 years old. Minimum age for parachuting. This should remain as it is based on the
individual’s capacity to make decisions. It is commonly accepted in law that persons
under the age of sixteen are not capable of making the types of decisions that would be
required to parachute safely.
b. 16 - 17 years old. Requires parental/guardian consent. This should remain for the above
(a) reasons as not all sixteen to eighteen year olds have that capacity.
c. 55 years old. The maximum age for anyone to start ‘solo’ parachuting. This had already
been discussed by STC. It was decided to keep this restriction as it was adopted
following a number of fatal accidents involving students who were over that age when
they were trained.
d. 40 years old. Above this age all parachutists require a Doctor’s certificate. Solo students
and experienced jumpers should remain unchanged, with a review to be carried out once
the new Tandem Student medicals been running for a number of months. This will prove
the system whilst without increasing risk as Tandem Students are fully under the control
of a qualified instructor throughout their descent."

I suspect Obelixtim, you either have an axe to grind with the BPA, or are blindly criticizing us for making safety decisions which you either don't agree with, or don't understand.

First of all, I have spent a great part of my skydiving career as an instructor examiner, and have spent a lot of time training jumpmasters and instructors, and developing training courses that specifically focus on safety, equipment and training. I have also personally trained and jumped more than 10000 first time jumpers, and have never killed any of them (touch wood). Also, I've acted as chief investigator of several fatal accidents.

I think I know a bit about safety and training. Not just talking out of my arse.

I have sat in (anonymously) on several first jump training sessions at different DZs in the UK, and have to say the standard of instruction I have witnessed has left me shaking my head at the sheer incompetence I witnessed. (I've also attended first jump training in the US, Australia, Germany, Holland and Spain)

I did not go there with an axe to grind, I was simply interested in observing how it was done.

If older students are or have been at risk in the past, perhaps it has something to do with the standard of training and equipment they are given. ( How long ago did some British DZs give up using round canopies?)

In that case I can completely understand why an age restriction is in place. Put there by the very people with a vested interest in covering their arses when it comes to their own incompetence and laziness when it comes to providing good training.

Blaming the restriction on CAA is just nonsense.

I remember when a CAA medical expert in NZ proposed a rule change which would require on board oxygen for every flight above 10000 ft, regardless of the time spent above that level. When we challenged that proposal, pointing out that it would be out of step with every other countries aviation regulation regarding this, they quickly backed off and dropped the proposal.

CAA don't own the sky, and need to be challenged on occasion.

One thing they continue to prove time and again, is they know nothing about skydiving, and would like us to quietly vanish from the skies.

I guess in NZ we are not so keen on tugging the forelock and kowtowing to authority.

And yes, I do have an axe to grind with BPA. Its an old boys club who enjoy their "status" as big fish in a small pool. I think they do huge damage to the sport, perhaps unwittingly. They could be so much better.

My experience with them over many years, and lots of different situations has been overwhelmingly negative. The ex military types are the worst. I will always call out bad practice, wherever it occurs. And I've seen it with the BPA more than anywhere else in the world. I think they are a joke.

And I make no apologies for that.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[RMK 3]

I fully agree with your statements above.

As for our CAA - also a joke. For any subsequent posts thinking I'm negative against our UK organisations; not at all. For example, I think the Royal Yachting Association (RYA) is truly the best in the world and is and should be a model for others to follow.

I hold concurrent EASA & FAA pilots licenses and a SACAA (South African) License Validation. Our CAA are absolutely rubbish compared to the FAA. Our locals will moan that the Europeans (EASA) are making things worse, but that's bullshit as the changes I see have all been positive.

I don't give a damn what passport I or anyone else holds. The underlying psychological reason for pushback from Brits on any negative view on UK associations/entities is a borne from a national collective insecurity - Britannia used to rule the waves and the sun never set on the British Empire, but time has moved on and "shit ain't like that anymore", but we still like to fee we're still seated at the head table. We had good run.

US. Enjoy you time now as the big dog; nothing lasts for ever.

"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"