My $2500 mistake

[nwt 131]

It just never occurred to me that this is something I should be looking for.

[pchapman 278]

Ouch. Hope you can still find it. Kudos to anyone like you willing to educate others after a screwup -- even if it was just a tiny, momentary lapse in focus.

(I did something not quite the same but with similar effect once. Locked up one toggle but that side was still effectively at full flight -- So I was able to land the Icarus FX canopy with one toggle and one riser.  Not a big deal even if such 'mixed controls' is not typically recommended.  Was your canopy still braked a fair bit on one side, which would complicate any flare?   I assume your canopy was more ground hungry / twitchier / more highly loaded than my early generation crossbrace.) 

[nwt 131]

5 minutes ago, pchapman said:

Hope you can still find it.

Chopped at 9.5K downwind of the DZ and pointed away. I was very deliberate about doing the opposite, but got mixed up. Seemed to stay inflated for a while. Not my home DZ and too far for me to go look myself. Some locals are gracious enough to look for me but I'm pessimistic enough that I've already ordered new parts and lined up inspection/escrow on a main. I did find my freebag though, which is nice. I debated reconnecting my skyhook shackle before chopping and ultimately not doing so paid off.

10 minutes ago, pchapman said:

So I was able to land the Icarus FX canopy with one toggle and one riser.  Not a big deal even if such 'mixed controls' is not typically recommended.  Was your canopy still braked a fair bit on one side, which would complicate any flare?   I assume your canopy was more ground hungry / twitchier / more highly loaded than my early generation crossbrace.) 

This is a Katana 135 loaded at 1.35. I had all the time I needed to contemplate my options and I'm happy with my decision to chop and to chop high. It's entirely plausible it could have been landed, but with my level of experience it was a pretty big unknown and I wasn't willing to accept that risk. I chose to chop high because I've never flown a reserve before, and I've never flown anything smaller than 135 while my reserve is a PD126. I actually told my flocking partner that morning that I've been planning to demo my reserve as a main. Once I get the video up you can decide for yourself if you think you could land it. I'm sure you could have.

[BMAC615 209]

Would a hook knife to the locked steering line and landing with both rears have been an option?

[nwt 131]

Just now, BMAC615 said:

Would a hook knife to the locked steering line and landing with both rears have been an option?

Maybe for some, but I haven't trained for landing on rears and wasn't interested in winging it. My concern was safety above all else, and once I saw I couldn't fix it the decision was easy.

[BMAC615 209]

1 minute ago, nwt said:

Maybe for some, but I haven't trained for landing on rears and wasn't interested in winging it. My concern was safety above all else, and once I saw I couldn't fix it the decision was easy.

You landed safely, so, you did the right thing :-) 

[mark 107]

1 hour ago, BMAC615 said:

Would a hook knife to the locked steering line and landing with both rears have been an option?

Maybe for some people (though the OP considered it and decided against).  Just know that landing on rears with intact brake lines is different from landing on rears with no brake lines.  

[BMAC615 209]

10 minutes ago, mark said:

Maybe for some people (though the OP considered it and decided against).  Just know that landing on rears with intact brake lines is different from landing on rears with no brake lines.  

Different enough to be dangerous to land with one cut and one not cut? (Provided the pilot has experience landing with rears only)

Edited June 2, 2021 by BMAC615

[base615 77]

3 hours ago, nwt said:

Maybe for some, but I haven't trained for landing on rears and wasn't interested in winging it. My concern was safety above all else, and once I saw I couldn't fix it the decision was easy.

Even if you're not confident to land it, cutting the brake line to stop the spin in order to chop at a lower altitude than 9.5k would have been a possibility.

All in hindsight of course. Having a full on spinning mal myself recently, I can confirm that I probably wouldn't have thought of doing that so it's better to throw away $2.5k than not get off a mal in a timely manner.

[tstar 10]

Can someone explain the mechanics of how this happened to a newbie?

A mistake, expensive or not that you walk away from in skydiving is luckier then hell and I'm sure you'll never EVER have to worry about that mal again! I hope someone finds your canopy for you...

Tim

[base615 77]

43 minutes ago, tstar said:

Can someone explain the mechanics of how this happened to a newbie?

A mistake, expensive or not that you walk away from in skydiving is luckier then hell and I'm sure you'll never EVER have to worry about that mal again! I hope someone finds your canopy for you...

Tim

He released the toggle but locked it off with the loop. Ensure the excess brake line is stowed away and make sure it's free of the toggle before releasing it. Also ensure it's free of your hand - I've had a similar one where I's released the brakes but ended up with the excess line stuck around my finger. Took a little bit of effort to get it off but all good in the end. You definitely don't want to have to chop with your canopy attached to your hand :)

[nwt 131]

7 hours ago, base615 said:

Even if you're not confident to land it, cutting the brake line to stop the spin in order to chop at a lower altitude than 9.5k would have been a possibility.

All in hindsight of course. Having a full on spinning mal myself recently, I can confirm that I probably wouldn't have thought of doing that so it's better to throw away $2.5k than not get off a mal in a timely manner.

I had no trouble countering the turn with my other toggle, and I was in control and chopped on my own terms. I chose to chop high to get some flight time and practice flares on my PD126, which I'd never flown before.

[nwt 131]

5 hours ago, tstar said:

Can someone explain the mechanics of how this happened to a newbie?

A mistake, expensive or not that you walk away from in skydiving is luckier then hell and I'm sure you'll never EVER have to worry about that mal again! I hope someone finds your canopy for you...

Tim

It will make more sense when I get the video up, but take a close look at my right toggle in the photo. The excess brake line formed a loop below the toggle and that loop flipped up over the toggle so when I unstowed it I pulled it through the loop, forming a knot.

Edited June 2, 2021 by nwt

[Quagmirian 40]

It is perfectly possible to cut the offending line in this circumstance and land on rears, especially if you have the altitude, but it's really going to depend on how familiar you are with your canopy's characteristics. I can totally understand not wanting to try it at a high loading.

[base615 77]

44 minutes ago, nwt said:

I had no trouble countering the turn with my other toggle, and I was in control and chopped on my own terms. I chose to chop high to get some flight time and practice flares on my PD126, which I'd never flown before.

That’s fair enough. Just think you’d get plenty of time to do all that from 3 grand, particularly  if you got yourself nicely in position over the DZ before chopping. Still, not for us to second guess when we weren’t there. The decision you make for yourself is usually absolutely the right one.

[nwt 131]

2 minutes ago, base615 said:

Just think you’d get plenty of time to do all that from 3 grand,

I agree completely, I just chose deliberately to maximize my practice time at the expense of the main, to lower the risk of injury as much as possible. If I had flown the PD126 at least once before then I would have chopped much lower. It was my first time flying anything smaller than 135. The landing was great, though.

[nwt 131]

31 minutes ago, Quagmirian said:

It is perfectly possible to cut the offending line in this circumstance and land on rears, especially if you have the altitude, but it's really going to depend on how familiar you are with your canopy's characteristics. I can totally understand not wanting to try it at a high loading.

I considered it, but I've never trained for landing on rears and I just wanted to land safely above all else.

[BMAC615 209]

35 minutes ago, nwt said:

I considered it, but I've never trained for landing on rears and I just wanted to land safely above all else.

So, uh, I recognize that this may not be the best time to bring this up, and how it’s going to be interpreted, but, uh, may I suggest that this $2,500 mistake started when you bought a Katana 135? Like, had you stayed on a lower WL for your main and reserve longer and really learned how to fly a larger canopy, including learning to land on rears, this could have been a different outcome?

Also, I recall discussing choosing a reserve size.

I’m only bringing this up because it’s sort of a thing that we’ve discussed in the past. Not to rub salt in the wound, but, to help you understand why I have the viewpoint that I have.

Edited June 2, 2021 by BMAC615

[nwt 131]

9 minutes ago, BMAC615 said:

So, uh, I recognize that this may not be the best time to bring this up, and how it’s going to be interpreted, but, uh, may I suggest that this $2,500 mistake started when you bought a Katana 150? Like, had you stayed on a lower WL for your main and reserve longer and really learned how to fly a larger canopy, including learning to land on rears, this could have been a different outcome?

Also, I recall discussing choosing a reserve size.

I’m only bringing this up because it’s sort of a thing that we’ve discussed in the past. Not to rub salt in the wound, but, to help you understand why I have the viewpoint that I have.

Well sure that's true that I would be thousands richer if I hadn't spent so much on gear, and on gear that I'm more likely to have to chop. But so what? I don't regret those decisions one bit. If I had gotten hurt or had a close call then I'd see your point.

[nwt 131]

18 minutes ago, BMAC615 said:

So, uh, I recognize that this may not be the best time to bring this up, and how it’s going to be interpreted, but, uh, may I suggest that this $2,500 mistake started when you bought a Katana 135? Like, had you stayed on a lower WL for your main and reserve longer and really learned how to fly a larger canopy, including learning to land on rears, this could have been a different outcome?

Also, I recall discussing choosing a reserve size.

I’m only bringing this up because it’s sort of a thing that we’ve discussed in the past. Not to rub salt in the wound, but, to help you understand why I have the viewpoint that I have.

I'll add that this was during a canopy course with Curt Bartholomew and he had some orange course students that day. They were doing drills on some of the exotic solutions discussed in this thread, and he said that the main point of doing the drills is to show you how unstable and dangerous they are.

[BMAC615 209]

6 minutes ago, nwt said:

I'll add that this was during a canopy course with Curt Bartholomew and he had some orange course students that day. They were doing drills on some of the exotic solutions discussed in this thread, and he said that the main point of doing the drills is to show you how unstable and dangerous they are.

Are you suggesting Curt Bartholomew believes flying a reserve no smaller than a canopy size you are highly proficient in landing AND becoming highly proficient on a canopy w/ a WL no higher than 1.1 - including learning to land on rears - is unstable and dangerous and that downsizing to a WL >1.1 before learning high performance landing techniques is a bad idea?

[nwt 131]

10 minutes ago, BMAC615 said:

Are you suggesting Curt Bartholomew believes flying a reserve no smaller than a canopy size you are highly proficient in landing AND becoming highly proficient on a canopy w/ a WL no higher than 1.1 - including learning to land on rears - is unstable and dangerous and that downsizing to a WL >1.1 before learning high performance landing techniques is a bad idea?

I can't speak for Curt, if you want to know what he believes you can ask him. I only know what I've heard him say and what he has taught me. If he had a problem with me being on this canopy, he would have said so, and would not be teaching me to swoop.

Edited June 2, 2021 by nwt

[jacketsdb23 49]

Recognizing you haven't practiced landing on rears (and even that is not apples to apples when one side is in half brakes) this type of mal is why I highly recommend and teach to new jumpers to get comfortable with all control inputs as soon as possible.

I did something almost identical and I should have known better. I landed my Velo loaded at 2.2 by taking two wraps of the 'good' toggle and landing on rears...however I had years of practice doing so (albeit not in half brakes). It was very natural and soft landing. I would not recommend that to anyone who has not practiced it.

At the end of the day, its just money. You landed safely and made the right decision. Live and learn. Good job.

Edited June 2, 2021 by jacketsdb23
spelling

[BMAC615 209]

Just now, nwt said:

I can't speak for Curt, if you want to know what he believes you can ask him. I only know what I've heard him say and what he has taught me. If he had a problem with me being on this canopy, he would have said so.

I’m just suggesting that the outcome is the end result of a series of decisions you made long before the toggle got pulled through the excess line. Here’s what Shannon Pilcher says and I’m pretty sure Curt has a similar opinion.

Again, you did the right thing in that particular situation based on the circumstances you faced. I’m just trying to drive home the idea that REALLY dialing in your skills on a lower performance canopy w/ a WL < 1.1 is something I highly recommend.

[jacketsdb23 49]

1 hour ago, base615 said:

That’s fair enough. Just think you’d get plenty of time to do all that from 3 grand, particularly  if you got yourself nicely in position over the DZ before chopping. Still, not for us to second guess when we weren’t there. The decision you make for yourself is usually absolutely the right one.

Id advise against in air rigging and going lower than necessary. If you've made the decision to chop - then chop.  One thing you can never have enough of is altitude. Would be shitty if you ate up 6k of altitude then had to deal with something on the reserve that required time and altitude.

Keep it simple.