A love letter to the Malthusians

[brenthutch 383]

https://www.perc.org/2020/07/06/against-environmental-pessimism/
 

“What else might we achieve by the year 2060? Even though there will then be more than nine billion people, it is almost certain there will be larger forests, more wildlife, cleaner rivers, and richer seas. Most people who deny this, and insist things are getting worse, are simply wrong.“

[Phil1111 911]

B.S.

Stated objective of that organization. "PERC is a research institute dedicated to promoting conservation by exploring how voluntary trade can produce positive environmental outcomes. We are committed to exploring the ideas of free market environmentalism, and this research is the foundation of PERC. Our current initiatives focus on market approaches to wildlife conservation and improving public lands management. This work then informs conservation policy and practice."

As a part of "free market environmentalism" is Accountability is also enhanced with clear ownership rights by making people responsible for harm done to others. The driver responsible for an auto collision, for example, is liable for any damages done.

The GOP, trump have both acted to disavow any connection of responsibility between polluters and the costs of their actions. Trump Serves Notice to Quit Paris Climate Agreement

It continues to amaze that you can find these obscure, impossible, pie in the sky answers. To fit your free market based conservation and environmental ideas to justify NON ACTION.

[brenthutch 383]

38 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

B.S.

Stated objective of that organization. "PERC is a research institute dedicated to promoting conservation by exploring how voluntary trade can produce positive environmental outcomes. 

Classic leftie obfuscation.  Can’t handle the message?  Attack the messenger.

[Phil1111 911]

4 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Classic leftie obfuscation.  Can’t handle the message?  Attack the messenger.

"PERC Benefits From Oil Industry Funding And Has Close Ties To The Koch Brothers

PERC Has Close Ties To The Koch Brothers, Who Lead An Oil And Gas Conglomerate And Bankroll Much Of The Right-Wing Movement 

PERC Is Partially Funded By The Koch Brothers. PERC Received $258,144 from the Koch Brothers. “The Koch brothers, leaders of a vast family oil-and-gas conglomerate, use this political network to pursue their right-wing agenda at nearly every level of government"

I'm instantly skeptical of any position taken by yourself or by Turtle. So less than five minutes of digging, voila.

[brenthutch 383]

What is wrong with a right wing/libertarian agenda?  It is demonstrably superior to a leftie/socialist/communist agenda. (Not to mention, better for the environment)

[Phil1111 911]

3 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

What is wrong with a right wing/libertarian agenda?  It is demonstrably superior to a leftie/socialist/communist agenda. (Not to mention, better for the environment)

Simple, accountability. Its absent with oil in general. Its a primary motivator of the Koch brothers. Its also a common theme in what you endorse.

Pollution accountability, environmental responsibility, for yourself, for trump and for the right. Its a straw man, a empty barrel an attempt to shield action with a smoke screen.

[brenthutch 383]

What from the article was factually wrong? I get that you don’t like the messenger, but what of the message?

[Phil1111 911]

The entire concept is fatally flawed. The idea that two parties to a transaction will fairly proportion environmental damage, or pollution. That private citizens or corporations will fairly value,trade, or properly deal with pollution or environmental damages. Is absurd.

Most damages from pollution occur to the public sphere. Without check and balances on citizens and corporations. Abuse is inevitable. Not a possibility, inevitable.

[brenthutch 383]

I didn’t ask you about concepts, I asked you about facts.  Just what was factually wrong with the article?

[billvon 2,400]

12 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

The entire concept is fatally flawed. The idea that two parties to a transaction will fairly proportion environmental damage, or pollution. That private citizens or corporations will fairly value,trade, or properly deal with pollution or environmental damages. Is absurd.  Most damages from pollution occur to the public sphere. Without check and balances on citizens and corporations. Abuse is inevitable. Not a possibility, inevitable.

Yep.  Classic tragedy of the commons.  Everyone wants a small benefit - but does not want to pay the cost of that benefit.

 

[jakee 1,254]

23 hours ago, brenthutch said:

What from the article was factually wrong? I get that you don’t like the messenger, but what of the message?

Well, it's interesting that the messenger revels in the fact that he has been specifically admonished by the authors of the studies he cites for drawing unwarranted conclusions from their work. 

[brenthutch 383]

18 hours ago, jakee said:

Well, it's interesting that the messenger revels in the fact that he has been specifically admonished by the authors of the studies he cites for drawing unwarranted conclusions from their work. 

The conclusions are self evident.

[jakee 1,254]

37 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

The conclusions are self evident.

The people who did the actual work disagree.

[brenthutch 383]

What points do YOU take issue with?  Set aside the conclusion, what facts are incorrect?  Do you deny that the earth is greener because of elevated levels of CO2?

Edited July 13, 2020 by brenthutch

[jakee 1,254]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

Set aside the conclusion, what facts are incorrect?

I didn't say I disagreed with any facts.

Quote

Do you deny that the earth is greener because of elevated levels of CO2?

?? I don't see how you could possibly think that's what I'm doing. 

 

No, I'm pointing out that you're showing us a guy saying ipso facto everything's amazing when the the people responsible for proving the earth is greening specifically warned him against making the conclusion that the earth is greening therefore everything's amazing.

[billvon 2,400]

3 hours ago, jakee said:

The people who did the actual work disagree.

Not important.  What's important that their words can be cherry picked and rearranged into a format that supports the denialist political agenda.

[brenthutch 383]

6 hours ago, billvon said:

Not important.  What's important that their words can be cherry picked and rearranged into a format that supports the denialist political agenda.

And the globes plant life is part of the conspiracy.

[Phil1111 911]

On 7/13/2020 at 5:19 PM, brenthutch said:

And the globes plant life is part of the conspiracy.

Here is the conspiracy.

"In its campaign against action on greenhouse gas emissions, one of the more subtle moves by the Trump administration is its manipulation of the Social Cost of Carbon (SCC). This number is used to represent the damage resulting from emitting an additional ton of carbon. Climate economists sometimes refer to it as the most important number you've never heard of. Undermine the SCC and you can discredit action to fight climate change, boost support for the fossil fuel industry, tip the scales away from renewable energy and counter other important policy initiatives. Fortunately, in a detailed report on the estimation of the SCC, the congressional watchdog General Accounting Office has called out this latest affront to reliable assessment of the science and risks of climate change."

Just more of the GOP being the GOP.

[brenthutch 383]

The social cost of carbon is negative.  

[turtlespeed 212]

Diamonds are carbon.  I have seen MANY social costs because of those little pieces of carbon.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

On 7/13/2020 at 6:34 AM, brenthutch said:

What points do YOU take issue with?  Set aside the conclusion, what facts are incorrect?  Do you deny that the earth is greener because of elevated levels of CO2?

I agree with a large part of his article. It outlines how policy changes and laws have helped the environment. Not sure how he then argues there should not be policy changes an laws going forward.