DJL 232 #1 July 16, 2018 Hypothetical. What if we did say, "to hell with the NATO mission" and left the Rammstein Airbase? I know we run a lot of different missions through there but what if we needed to throw down the guantlet and get the other countries to pay more into NATO. Could we relocate the elements that run out of there? Airlift, Drone relay, various fighter and bomber squadrons?"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,255 #2 July 16, 2018 Quotepay more into NATO. What do you mean by that?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #3 July 16, 2018 jakeeQuotepay more into NATO. What do you mean by that? Trump's attempt to get other countries to pay in more. I've heard some beliefs that we do not need bases around the world that we should leave NATO to its own devices."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #4 July 16, 2018 >Could we relocate the elements that run out of there? Airlift, Drone relay, various >fighter and bomber squadrons? Absolutely. We can stage further away, use commercial spaces for drone relays, rely more on satellite control, manage from the US etc. It is likely that all that would be more costly than a more central/accessible facility like Ramstein. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,255 #5 July 16, 2018 DJLTrump's attempt to get other countries to pay in more. What does that mean? How should they "pay in more"?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bob_Church 7 #6 July 16, 2018 DJL***Quotepay more into NATO. What do you mean by that? Trump's attempt to get other countries to pay in more. I've heard some beliefs that we do not need bases around the world that we should leave NATO to its own devices. Is there a list of which nations are paying how much? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,255 #7 July 16, 2018 Bob_Church******Quotepay more into NATO. What do you mean by that? Trump's attempt to get other countries to pay in more. I've heard some beliefs that we do not need bases around the world that we should leave NATO to its own devices. Is there a list of which nations are paying how much for using the base? It's a USAF base with USAF units stationed there. Apart from the office space rental for the NATO HQ why would other nations be paying to use it?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,341 #8 July 16, 2018 Bob_Church******Quotepay more into NATO. What do you mean by that? Trump's attempt to get other countries to pay in more. I've heard some beliefs that we do not need bases around the world that we should leave NATO to its own devices. Is there a list of which nations are paying how much? No. Because that's not how it works. Nobody (as in no country) "pays in" to NATO. There aren't any dues or fees that some sort of "NATO Treasurer" collects. The idea is that each member country should spend a certain amount (2% of GDP) on their own defense budget."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bob_Church 7 #9 July 16, 2018 wolfriverjoe*********Quotepay more into NATO. What do you mean by that? Trump's attempt to get other countries to pay in more. I've heard some beliefs that we do not need bases around the world that we should leave NATO to its own devices. Is there a list of which nations are paying how much? No. Because that's not how it works. Nobody (as in no country) "pays in" to NATO. There aren't any dues or fees that some sort of "NATO Treasurer" collects. The idea is that each member country should spend a certain amount (2% of GDP) on their own defense budget. Not NATO, Rammstein. Isn't that a shared facility? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,255 #10 July 16, 2018 Bob_ChurchNot NATO, Rammstein. Isn't that a shared facility? It's a USAF base that currently has some NATO admin on site. How much do you pay the Belgians to use NATO HQ in Brussels?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #11 July 17, 2018 jakee***Not NATO, Rammstein. Isn't that a shared facility? It's a USAF base that currently has some NATO admin on site. How much do you pay the Belgians to use NATO HQ in Brussels? That's not what I'm saying or asking. The "paying in" part is 100% rhetoric based upon absolutely nothing than anyone has been able to quantify and has even less to do with how the Ramstein base is payed for."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,255 #12 July 17, 2018 DJL******Not NATO, Rammstein. Isn't that a shared facility? It's a USAF base that currently has some NATO admin on site. How much do you pay the Belgians to use NATO HQ in Brussels? That's not what I'm saying or asking. The "paying in" part is 100% rhetoric based upon absolutely nothing than anyone has been able to quantify and has even less to do with how the Ramstein base is payed for. "I know we run a lot of different missions through there but what if we needed to throw down the guantlet and get the other countries to pay more into NATO. " What do you mean by that?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #13 July 17, 2018 jakee*********Not NATO, Rammstein. Isn't that a shared facility? It's a USAF base that currently has some NATO admin on site. How much do you pay the Belgians to use NATO HQ in Brussels? That's not what I'm saying or asking. The "paying in" part is 100% rhetoric based upon absolutely nothing than anyone has been able to quantify and has even less to do with how the Ramstein base is payed for. "I know we run a lot of different missions through there but what if we needed to throw down the guantlet and get the other countries to pay more into NATO. " What do you mean by that? Trump has been bitching that other countries don't contribute more for the NATO alliance by direct defense spending. For some reason everyone agreed to it being 2% GDP even though that has no bearing on what we actually need to "Do NATO". Anyway, I was speaking with some people who felt as thought we should pull back our presence in Europe and I used Ramstein as an ultimate example since it's the base and hub for many operations for Europe, African, Middle East and South Asia. They (retired Army/Navy officers) thought we could do our mission just fine without dedicated bases like Ramstein so I was curious what others thought."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,255 #14 July 17, 2018 QuoteTrump has been bitching that other countries don't contribute more for the NATO alliance by direct defense spending. For some reason everyone agreed to it being 2% GDP even though that has no bearing on what we actually need to "Do NATO". I know that. It was confusing that you based your first two posts on a false premise. QuoteAnyway, I was speaking with some people who felt as thought we should pull back our presence in Europe and I used Ramstein as an ultimate example since it's the base and hub for many operations for Europe, African, Middle East and South Asia. They (retired Army/Navy officers) thought we could do our mission just fine without dedicated bases like Ramstein so I was curious what others thought. If there is a point to Nato in the modern world, and there is a benefit to the US for other nations to spend more on their military then there is absolutely a benefit to the US having a base in Ramstein. If there is no benefit to a base at Ramstein then there's probably no benefit from the rest of the Nato structure. But if Nato is useful, and having other nations spend more on defense is useful, then leaving Ramstein out of spite because the spending isn't happening would be nonsensical.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #15 July 17, 2018 Yeah, the difficulty in Trump's claim that they need to get to 2% GDP military spending is that false premise, that GDP has anything to do with it. He even floated that they should be at 4% but we don't even average that (3.6%). They don't have global militaries and while they do have similar global national interests to ours only maintain a military for regional defense. In effect, 100% of their their military is for NATO while we maintain many overlaps. Our forces stationed at European bases may be part of the NATO defense program but we deployed them to other areas in the world and they perform missions that have have nothing to do with NATO. In effect we "pay in" way more than other countries so we can do what we were going to do anyway. The irony, and I almost don't even want to go down this road, is that Trump on one hand talks about how great Russia is and on the other hand wants other countries to spend more to defend against him."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bob_Church 7 #16 July 17, 2018 "The irony, and I almost don't even want to go down this road, is that Trump on one hand talks about how great Russia is and on the other hand wants other countries to spend more to defend against him. " However Trump may feel or not this is a long term situation and needs to be worked out. Who is being defended? Are those who are being defended doing at least their share? And I'm not talking some percentage, that's a number someone pulled out back in the 40s. But are the countries that worry about being invaded doing what they should or just riding on the US' Cold War mentality? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 911 #17 July 17, 2018 We Still Need NATO https://www.the-american-interest.com/2016/01/15/we-still-need-nato/ Is America Getting a Bargain With NATO? https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2016/08/natos-a-deal/496952/ Why Nato is good for the US too https://www.straitstimes.com/opinion/why-nato-is-good-for-the-us-too America’s NATO Problem: We’ve Forgotten Why We’re a Member https://www.csis.org/analysis/americas-nato-problem-weve-forgotten-why-were-member Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bob_Church 7 #18 July 17, 2018 "The irony, and I almost don't even want to go down this road, is that Trump on one hand talks about how great Russia is and on the other hand wants other countries to spend more to defend against him. " This assumption that Russia is still the problem reminds me of the 70s when people would bellow "buy a Jap car!!!! Hell no, we just fought those sons a bitches!" Certain sects of Islam are the new enemy. That's why I can't get upset about Russia taking The Crimea. Look at it. It wasn't going to stay independent for any length of time and I'd much rather Russia had it than the alternatives and I suspect most of those who live there feel the same way, at least the ones not looking to kill all infidels. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #19 July 17, 2018 QuoteThis assumption that Russia is still the problem reminds me of the 70s when people would bellow "buy a Jap car!!!! Hell no, we just fought those sons a bitches!" Russia is not THE problem. Russia is A problem. They've attacked us, have shown they have imperial desires, and they continue to try to manipulate our government and our media to get their way. That puts them in the "problem" category. And given that we have a president who is bending over for them, that makes it a bigger problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 911 #20 July 17, 2018 Bob_Church"The irony, and I almost don't even want to go down this road, is that Trump on one hand talks about how great Russia is and on the other hand wants other countries to spend more to defend against him. " This assumption that Russia is still the problem reminds me of the 70s when people would bellow "buy a Jap car!!!! Hell no, we just fought those sons a bitches!" Certain sects of Islam are the new enemy. That's why I can't get upset about Russia taking The Crimea. Look at it. It wasn't going to stay independent for any length of time and I'd much rather Russia had it than the alternatives and I suspect most of those who live there feel the same way, at least the ones not looking to kill all infidels. Russia’s Biggest Enemy Is U.S. — Poll https://themoscowtimes.com/news/russias-biggest-enemy-is-us-poll-60146 ----------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Peters was a US Army foreign-area officer for the former Soviet Union and Russia. He is currently Fox News’ strategic analyst. Vladimir Putin will always be America’s enemy https://nypost.com/2016/12/11/vladimir-putin-will-always-be-americas-enemy/ "Vladimir Putin is our enemy. Not because we want him to be, but because resentment and hatred of the United States is central to his being. Russia’s president yearns to do us harm. He blames us for the Soviet Union’s self-wrought collapse. He blames us for Russian stagnation. He blames us for the derelict lot of his drunken, diseased country. And he wants revenge. Putin has five strategic goals: He wants international sanctions lifted, Europe divided and NATO destroyed. He seeks to restore the empire of the czars. And he wants to humiliate the United States." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bob_Church 7 #21 July 17, 2018 Phil1111We Still Need NATO https://www.the-american-interest.com/2016/01/15/we-still-need-nato/ Is America Getting a Bargain With NATO? https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2016/08/natos-a-deal/496952/ Why Nato is good for the US too https://www.straitstimes.com/opinion/why-nato-is-good-for-the-us-too America’s NATO Problem: We’ve Forgotten Why We’re a Member https://www.csis.org/analysis/americas-nato-problem-weve-forgotten-why-were-member Ok. Four opinion pieces in which the authors say "I think we still need NATO" But having read all four of them I can't see anything concrete, just the opinions of four people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 911 #22 July 18, 2018 Bob_Church***We Still Need NATO https://www.the-american-interest.com/2016/01/15/we-still-need-nato/ Is America Getting a Bargain With NATO? https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2016/08/natos-a-deal/496952/ Why Nato is good for the US too https://www.straitstimes.com/opinion/why-nato-is-good-for-the-us-too America’s NATO Problem: We’ve Forgotten Why We’re a Member https://www.csis.org/analysis/americas-nato-problem-weve-forgotten-why-were-member Ok. Four opinion pieces in which the authors say "I think we still need NATO" But having read all four of them I can't see anything concrete, just the opinions of four people. In the poll above the post you quoted was a survey from Russia. "In a new survey published Wednesday by the Levada Center, 66 percent of respondents said they believe that Russia has an enemy. “They are talking about evil designs against our country on TV all the time,” Levada’s pollster Denis Volkov told the RBC business outlet Wednesday, explaining the level of antagonism. Of those two-thirds, 68 percent named the U.S. as Russia's biggest enemy. It was followed by Ukraine and the EU at 29 percent and 14 percent each. One in four polled Russians said the “country is surrounded by enemies from all sides.” Given that all media in Russia is controlled by the Kremlin. Why do you think Russians have those attitudes? What speculations do you have about the "evil designs" that the USA has on Russia and its people? Why would stories from western news sources be banned? Western newspapers banned? The Kremlin’s latest crackdown on independent media https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2017/12/06/the-kremlins-latest-crackdown-on-independent-media/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,341 #23 July 18, 2018 Phil1111...Given that all media in Russia is controlled by the Kremlin. Why do you think Russians have those attitudes? What speculations do you have about the "evil designs" that the USA has on Russia and its people? Why would stories from western news sources be banned? Western newspapers banned? Why is Russia the most dangerous country in the world to be an independent (opposition) journalist? (yes, this is a rhetorical question)"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 911 #24 July 18, 2018 wolfriverjoe***...Given that all media in Russia is controlled by the Kremlin. Why do you think Russians have those attitudes? What speculations do you have about the "evil designs" that the USA has on Russia and its people? Why would stories from western news sources be banned? Western newspapers banned? Why is Russia the most dangerous country in the world to be an independent (opposition) journalist? (yes, this is a rhetorical question) I assume thats directed at Bob. In the greater context of debate. Its not that Russia, or more accurately the Russian people are the enemy. They are like the cultists of trump. They are kept in the dark with regards to what is really going on. The Putin kleptocracy for himself and his inner circle is the prime focus. Beyond that, Putin has stated publicly and I've posted it here before. That he wants to recreate the USSR and return Russia to its former glory and "position" of respect in the world. Even though as an economy its smaller than Canada, or California. Presumably thats and effort to have a bigger pie for Putin and his allies to steal from. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,255 #25 July 18, 2018 Phil1111The Putin kleptocracy for himself and his inner circle is the prime focus.... Presumably thats and effort to have a bigger pie for Putin and his allies to steal from. I think that's another reason why Trump admires Putin so much - when they lie, they both lie big. Putin claims the extent of his wealth is a small apartment, a retirement fund of under haf a mil and an old Lada 4x4. In reality he could match Trump's entire business 'empire' with his pocket change.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
