Islam...the religion of peace?

[Suslique 0]

markharju

***[If you're a total dud in bed, find yourself a virgin and convince her that the female orgasm is a myth. Yeah, that's the ticket...

Then make FGM part of the culture for that extra edge.

mh
.

It was present in tribal traditions before Islam. Islam forbids mutilation (removal of all tissues) however adult female is allowed to decide whether to have surgical procedure that is in western world called labiaplasty or not. Females do it for cosmetic or hygienic reasons you can read about it on realself.com if you are interested.

Female orgasm is an important part of marital relationship in Islam, there is a whole series of lectures by Yasir Qadhi on this matter.

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[Suslique 0]

masterblaster72

On BBC News this morning: The Battle Between the Veil and the Miniskirt

Is the fear for one's safety when speaking up related to religion or is it related to culture?

Quote

What makes a man? According to the people behind a campaign which apparently started in Algeria this week, "real men" take charge of what the women in their family wear - and they make sure females are covered up in public.

...

Tunisian campaigner Rachid ben Othman led the online offensive by calling for an 'international day of the mini skirt' in a show of solidarity with Algerian women. "We must fight the pro-Islamists taking over," Othman wrote on the event's Facebook page.
Another Tunisian campaigner, who wanted to remain anonymous because of fears for her safety, told BBC Trending that the "Be a man" campaign demeans women. When asked why a miniskirt was chosen as the poster garment for the campaign, she said: "It had to make the same point, they chose the veil as a piece of clothing and we chose the miniskirt."

Culture. Islam clearly states that "The is no compulsion in religion". No matter what media or backwards cultures or islamophobes say

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[masterblaster72 0]

Suslique

***
On BBC News this morning: The Battle Between the Veil and the Miniskirt

Is the fear for one's safety when speaking up related to religion or is it related to culture?

Quote

What makes a man? According to the people behind a campaign which apparently started in Algeria this week, "real men" take charge of what the women in their family wear - and they make sure females are covered up in public.

...

Tunisian campaigner Rachid ben Othman led the online offensive by calling for an 'international day of the mini skirt' in a show of solidarity with Algerian women. "We must fight the pro-Islamists taking over," Othman wrote on the event's Facebook page.
Another Tunisian campaigner, who wanted to remain anonymous because of fears for her safety, told BBC Trending that the "Be a man" campaign demeans women. When asked why a miniskirt was chosen as the poster garment for the campaign, she said: "It had to make the same point, they chose the veil as a piece of clothing and we chose the miniskirt."

Culture. Islam clearly states that "The is no compulsion in religion". No matter what media or backwards cultures or islamophobes say

What type of cultural problem is this then? Is it a problem of Tunisian culture? Pan-Arab culture? This same type of threat to a woman's well-being occurs in similar circumstances in Iran and Somalia as well -- neither of which have Arab populations.

How can such cultural issues be remedied in places like Tunisia so that women can be vocal about their choice to wear miniskirts without fear of harassment or attack?

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[Suslique 0]

Media makes u feel as if its a middle easter-pan Arab problem when in fact its a global problem. Everywhere from India to Brazil from US to Russia. Ask ur female friends im sure they have tons of stories to tell u. What makes men associate mini skirt as a permission for harassment/annoying flirt? I don't know. Maybe ignorance? Parents didn't hug them enough? What makes a seemingly successful big boss harass his female employee? I'm not a psychologist I don't have answers to these questions.

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[Suslique 0]

interesting read

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/02/19/women.bikinis.objects/

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[masterblaster72 0]

Suslique

Media makes u feel as if its a middle easter-pan Arab problem when in fact its a global problem. Everywhere from India to Brazil from US to Russia. Ask ur female friends im sure they have tons of stories to tell u. What makes men associate mini skirt as a permission for harassment/annoying flirt? I don't know. Maybe ignorance? Parents didn't hug them enough? What makes a seemingly successful big boss harass his female employee? I'm not a psychologist I don't have answers to these questions.

What we're talking about is the threat to a woman's safety for voicing her desire to don a miniskirt -- not the "lies of the media" or objectification of women, which I agree occurs in diverse forms in many cultures. With the exception of parts of India, a woman generally doesn't have to fear for her safety there, nor does she in the US Brazil or Russia for voicing how she wishes to dress in public.

So assuming the media are correct in the instance of the Tunisian women wearing miniskirts as I can't travel there to hear first hand accounts from the interviewed women -- what kind of cultural problem is this if a threat to a woman's safety for wanting to wear a miniskirt has nothing to do with religion?

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[Suslique 0]

I know only one Tunisian he is married to my friend and nobody in his family wears hijab. As a matter of fact his wife is constantly criticised by in-laws that she looks like an old woman. So I'm not even sure whatever media is portraying is a nation wide problem. Maybe in some uneducated regions?

[Quote]what kind of cultural problem is this if a threat to a woman's safety for wanting to wear a miniskirt has nothing to do with religion?

In patriarchal sexist societies? Former colonies that still can't recover and get their business together? Low % of education?

Islam gave women right to own a business, get divorce, get education and work (or not work even if her husband wants her to work). I can't speak for Tunisians, the only thing that j can tell u is Islam's position on women's rights.

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[Coreeece 2]

Suslique

interesting read

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/02/19/women.bikinis.objects/

Interesting...it appears that females view pictures of bikinis differently than horny college guys.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[cvfd1399 0]

What happened in the Middle East since the 50's iirc. People show pictures of them at the beaches, out socalizing, the city's are landscaped, irrigated, women are not rolled into a bed sheet, it almost looked civilized. Was it a reimmergance of religion that put them back in the stone ages?

[masterblaster72 0]

Suslique

I know only one Tunisian he is married to my friend and nobody in his family wears hijab. As a matter of fact his wife is constantly criticised by in-laws that she looks like an old woman. So I'm not even sure whatever media is portraying is a nation wide problem. Maybe in some uneducated regions?

[Quote]what kind of cultural problem is this if a threat to a woman's safety for wanting to wear a miniskirt has nothing to do with religion?

In patriarchal sexist societies? Former colonies that still can't recover and get their business together? Low % of education?

Islam gave women right to own a business, get divorce, get education and work (or not work even if her husband wants her to work). I can't speak for Tunisians, the only thing that j can tell u is Islam's position on women's rights.

Going back to the event that spawned this thread. A woman was brutally killed by a bloodthirsty mob in Afghanistan when falsely accused of burning the Quran.

The bloodthirsty mob happened to comprise Muslims entirely. Yet by your reasoning, what these Muslims did has nothing to do with Islam.

I find it difficult and I think it's denial to separate a religion from the actions of its adherents. Same goes for the global cartoon riots of 2006. I mean, what in the world was that all about.

Another cultural problem? Perhaps the type of Islam practiced in Afghanistan and some other countries? It's a shame this type of thing is happening in this day and age.

Regarding the bikinis: at least the women wearing them choose to wear them and have the freedom to do so -- knowing full well how objectifying we men can often be.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[Suslique 0]

No, you can't make up your mind about religion based on its followers. You are talking about countries that suffered from colonial period and wars, take Afghanistan-- country where generation after generation was born in the state of war. There is a trauma of generations that affects all aspects of life.


I'm not in a state or denial, i study my religion daily. I would never become a Muslim if I studied people instead of religion. Speaking of people I personally don't know single "crazy" Muslim that media is constantly talking about

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[Suslique 0]

Middle East consists of 18 countries. Which country in particular you are referring to?

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[cvfd1399 0]

I'm not sure I believe it was Afghanistan. The premise is that back 50+ years ago parts or all of it(I wasn't there only saw old photos) was a modern society with for today's standard of Islam a lax in modesty and women's oppression. I'm guessing the landscape was changed by the wars, but what made the society change? Women back then were encouraged to talk, went to school and wore calf length skirts.

[Suslique 0]

Afghanistan is not middle East. And war changes not only landscape unfortunately. Landscape is the least affected thing... Read up on their history and regimes that came one after another. It is not Islam that brought them into the state they are now. There was Islam before Afghanistan became a bait for Russia, west and others. If u r not into history then I advise u to read Thousands of Splendid Suns by Khaled Hosseini, it is fiction but describes historical changes pretty well. Want to see modern Islamic societies? Go to Qatar, Oman, UAE. Dont trust mass media to form your opinion on middle East, get a ticket and see it with ur own eyes.

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[masterblaster72 0]

cvfd1399

I'm not sure I believe it was Afghanistan. The premise is that back 50+ years ago parts or all of it(I wasn't there only saw old photos) was a modern society with for today's standard of Islam a lax in modesty and women's oppression. I'm guessing the landscape was changed by the wars, but what made the society change? Women back then were encouraged to talk, went to school and wore calf length skirts.

I can give this a try: history of imposed secular governments by foreign powers (think the Shah, Hussein, Assad, the kings in Afghanistan preceding their Marxist revolution in the 70s). To these countries, going full Islamic is a one way of being authentic to who they are while rebelling against that secular history imposed by foreigners.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[masterblaster72 0]

Suslique

Afghanistan is not middle East. And war changes not only landscape unfortunately. Landscape is the least affected thing... Read up on their history and regimes that came one after another. It is not Islam that brought them into the state they are now. There was Islam before Afghanistan became a bait for Russia, west and others. If u r not into history then I advise u to read Thousands of Splendid Suns by Khaled Hosseini, it is fiction but describes historical changes pretty well.

This theme of media comes up in many of your posts. What exactly are the media distorting or lying about?

For example, do you think the cartoon riots of 2006 or the mob killing of the Afghan teenager last month are fabricated, distorted or taken out of context somehow?

Quote

Want to see modern Islamic societies? Go to Qatar, Oman, UAE. Dont trust mass media to form your opinion on middle East, get a ticket and see it with ur own eyes.

Might be hard to convince some of us -- see this and this thread. Personally, I wouldn't put my money into regimes that support slavery.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[wmw999 2,123]

Methinks the external mass media is about as good at capturing life in other countries as mass media is at capturing the truth about skydiving. People on the inside understand the differences and subtleties; people on the outside just want to know as little as possible to think they understand it.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[jakee 1,256]

cvfd1399

I'm not sure I believe it was Afghanistan. The premise is that back 50+ years ago parts or all of it(I wasn't there only saw old photos) was a modern society with for today's standard of Islam a lax in modesty and women's oppression. I'm guessing the landscape was changed by the wars, but what made the society change? Women back then were encouraged to talk, went to school and wore calf length skirts.

Yeah but seriously, photo's from 40 years ago in Kabul (a cosmopolitan city) in no way reflects the society then in the boonies of Afghanistan (a tribal, warlord infested backwater).

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Coreeece 2]

wmw999

Methinks the external mass media is about as good at capturing life in other countries as mass media is at capturing the truth about skydiving. People on the inside understand the differences and subtleties; people on the outside just want to know as little as possible to think they understand it.

Wendy P.

I think that sums it up quite nicely, tho I would add that it might not be so much as to understand as it is to bash something you don't like for whatever reason...

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Suslique 0]

It is a very complex topic that deserves a book written on this subject (that I recommended to read in my previous posts, by Mr Chomsky). Media amplifies whatever "crazy" and "scary" is happening in Muslim world, to empose stereotypes and dehumanise muslims for western society, to condition west into "us vs them" thinking. So that if there is another invasion to Iraq or Afghanistan or any other "barbaric" country there is little resistance from western public. So that nobody asks uncomfortable questions, so that it is easier to manipulate public opinion in any direction needed.
Every country's media does exactly the same job. Tune in into Russian news sometime, you are going to be outraged by the portrayal of US by their mass media. Never underestimate the power of propaganda and brainwashing.

What do u feel when u hear about some suicide bomber in Iraq killing hundreds of Muslims? More than likely the reaction would be pretty different in case the same thing happens in western country. The power of dehumanisation. What was the outcome of absolutely unacceptable Israeli operation last year in Palestine? Any sanctions by west? Anything about Israeli nuclear activities? All rhetoric questions.. Masses are conditioned into certain type of thinking that benefits their government. Free thinkers are dangerous for any system both western and eastern or Martian for that matter.

Another point is that bold headlines always work good as a distraction from local problems.

When it comes to slavery...well as it is said don't hate someone who sins differently than you do. Or maybe not so different after all [url]https://www.aclu.org/blog/us-admits-modern-day-slavery-exists-home[/URL] add to this slave shop fueled business of corporations and you'll see that every country uses the same tactics and models. And just like everywhere else above mentioned cases are exceptions. Majority of immigrants in UAE are paid well, and work in proper conditions. But to see that u need to get a ticket and visit. ;)

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[Suslique 0]

Yes, absolutely. Interesting perspective, thank you

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[masterblaster72 0]

Suslique

It is a very complex topic that deserves a book written on this subject (that I recommended to read in my previous posts, by Mr Chomsky). Media amplifies whatever "crazy" and "scary" is happening in Muslim world, to empose stereotypes and dehumanise muslims for western society, to condition west into "us vs them" thinking. So that if there is another invasion to Iraq or Afghanistan or any other "barbaric" country there is little resistance from western public. So that nobody asks uncomfortable questions, so that it is easier to manipulate public opinion in any direction needed.
Every country's media does exactly the same job. Tune in into Russian news sometime, you are going to be outraged by the portrayal of US by their mass media. Never underestimate the power of propaganda and brainwashing.

What do u feel when u hear about some suicide bomber in Iraq killing hundreds of Muslims? More than likely the reaction would be pretty different in case the same thing happens in western country. The power of dehumanisation. What was the outcome of absolutely unacceptable Israeli operation last year in Palestine? Any sanctions by west? Anything about Israeli nuclear activities? All rhetoric questions.. Masses are conditioned into certain type of thinking that benefits their government. Free thinkers are dangerous for any system both western and eastern or Martian for that matter.

Another point is that bold headlines always work good as a distraction from local problems.

When it comes to slavery...well as it is said don't hate someone who sins differently than you do. Or maybe not so different after all
I'll ask again -- what was distorted or dishonest about the reporting over the 2006 cartoon riots, or the brutal and savage murder of Farkhunda? What subtleties am I missing, and is it a lie or distortion that both destructive acts were motivated by religious fervor?

Regarding slavery -- that this still happens in the US is absolutely wrong and should be rectified. At the same time, the US allows criticism without fear of jail: note the ACLU is an American organization.

You can't say the same about UAE or Qatar. Entire [url "http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/05/201352375248751541.html"]cities are being built by slaves">https://www.aclu.org/blog/us-admits-modern-day-slavery-exists-home[/URL] add to this slave shop fueled business of corporations and you'll see that every country uses the same tactics and models. And just like everywhere else above mentioned cases are exceptions. Majority of immigrants in UAE are paid well, and work in proper conditions. But to see that u need to get a ticket and visit. ;)

I will read Noam Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent -- numerous friends recommended this book over the years and I've long had the intention of reading it. I realize that media can be full of shit and misused -- Fox "News" in the US being an excellent example. I get a balanced diet of viewpoints from Reuters, BBC, refrl.org, Al-Jazeera, Memri, and used to read RT until I realized it's just the Russian version of Fox.

I'll ask again -- what was distorted or dishonest about the reporting over the 2006 cartoon riots, or the brutal and savage murder of Farkhunda? What subtleties am I missing, and is it a lie or distortion that both destructive acts were motivated by religious fervor?

Regarding slavery -- that this still happens in the US is absolutely wrong and should be rectified. At the same time, the US allows criticism without fear of jail: note the ACLU is an American organization.

You can't say the same about UAE or Qatar. Entire [url "http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/05/201352375248751541.html"]cities are being built by slaves in Dubai, with no possibility for recourse or justice. I could go on about Qatar and the 2022 World Cup, but I would rather stay on topic.

I'm open to recommendations. Go to UAE or Qatar? No thanks.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

• Quote

[Suslique 0]

The fact that they pick up single cases and amplify them and make it look as if all Muslims are just like that. This is what i call distortion and manipulation of facts. When u repeat the same thing over and over again it forms a solid stereotype.

Hmm I don't agree. US doesn't like vocal critics either, look it up there are plenty of political and social movement prisoners in US. Plus allowing critics doesn't mean dealing with problem, dog barks caravan moves on.

I don't agree with generalisation re UAE or Qatar, thousands of people from Asia support their families back home thanks to job opportunities in ME. Slavery is not a mundane thing there u know, just like in the case mentioned in the article about US modern day slavery.

Just out of curiosity are there other countries that you boycott? Israel? Russia? Mexico? Brazil?

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[masterblaster72 0]

Suslique

The fact that they pick up single cases and amplify them and make it look as if all Muslims are just like that.

I've not seen any news outlets do that; if they do such things I would immediately stop using them. Fox News might do this, but I don't watch that network as it has zero integrity.

Quote

This is what i call distortion and manipulation of facts. When u repeat the same thing over and over again it forms a solid stereotype.

Reliable news outlets report facts. If certain newsworthy facts occur again and again, the news will report those facts. The news outlets I use don't make it a point to paint Muslims in a bad light.

News outlets will report violent acts. They will report on Boko Haram and recent bombings of Shiite mosques in SA. They will also report on mass graves in Mexico or biker gang shootouts in Texas.

What reliable news outlets won't do is refrain from reporting violent incidents for the sake of the facts being very inconvenient to followers of Islam.

Quote

I don't agree with generalisation re UAE or Qatar, thousands of people from Asia support their families back home thanks to job opportunities in ME. Slavery is not a mundane thing there u know, just like in the case mentioned in the article about US modern day slavery.

I'll direct you to the Global Slavery Index 2014. Refer to rankings of prevalence by country on page 10, and where UAE and Qatar rank in relation to the US.

Quote

Just out of curiosity are there other countries that you boycott? Israel? Russia? Mexico? Brazil?

There are a number of other countries in addition to UAE and Qatar I would not visit for various reasons.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[Suslique 0]

Just read the book when u have an opportunity to do it, because I'll have to basically re-write it here to prove my point.

Good for you, I don't share the same logic with respect to traveling. Every country has its dark side. Some are getting involved in literally constant unnesesary wars overseas, some have human right problems, some have off grid prisons, some drug/human trafficking, some poverty, some ecological problems, some have corporations that basically work on the same slavery just overseas (out of sight out of mind) etc

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones