Global warming traps scientists in ice

[brenthutch 388]

Decreases.

[DanG 1]

Quote

Until 4 degrees C. Then the density increases. Which is why ice floats

No. Ice floats because its crystalline structure is less dense than water in the liquid phase. It's not like ice will float in water that's at 4C, but not float in warmer water.

Maybe this attachment will help.

- Dan G

[brenthutch 388]

"Really? There is nothing more anti-scientific than the very idea that science is settled, static, impervious to challenge."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-the-myth-of-settled-science/2014/02/20/c1f8d994-9a75-11e3-b931-0204122c514b_story.html

[DanG 1]

Quote

There is nothing more anti-scientific than the very idea that science is settled, static, impervious to challenge.

That would be a great quote if it had anything to do with how the scientific community thinks.

In other words, stop beating your strawman, he's looking a little ragged.

- Dan G

[kallend 1,648]

DanG

Quote

Until 4 degrees C. Then the density increases. Which is why ice floats

No. Ice floats because its crystalline structure is less dense than water in the liquid phase. It's not like ice will float in water that's at 4C, but not float in warmer water.

Maybe this attachment will help.

Ice floats because it is less dense than water. It is ice because it is colder than liquid water (assuming constant pressure). So he is, in fact correct and, as usual, brenthutch is wrong.

And liquid water has a lower density at 0 degrees C than at 4 degrees C, so he was right about that too.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,648]

brenthutch

***It is less dense BECAUSE it is cold. Water peaks in density at 4 degrees C.

This sort of grasp doesn't have much benefit.

Try again. The density of water at freezing temperatures is a function of the unique properties of water, not solely due to a lack of heat. As a rule of thumb, lower temperature = higher density.

The unique properties of water are, of course, the very properties that are relevant to the behavior of the oceans and the icecaps.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[brenthutch 388]

H2O can exist as both a liquid (water) and a solid (ice) at zero degrees C. It is the crystalline structure of ice that makes it less dense. Ice does not float because it is cold, ice floats because it is ice.

[DanG 1]

Quote

Ice floats because it is less dense than water. It is ice because it is colder than liquid water (assuming constant pressure). So he is, in fact correct and, as usual, brenthutch is wrong.

And liquid water has a lower density at 0 degrees C than at 4 degrees C, so he was right about that too.

lawrocket's statement was:

Quote

Until 4 degrees C. Then the density increases. Which is why ice floats

Which implies that ice floats in water because water at 4C is denser than at other temperatures. That's wrong. Ice floats in water because ice at any temperature is less dense than water at any temperature. And yes, I mean ice in its naturally occurring form, not an exotic alotope that doesn't exist on Earth except in a lab.

Why are we even discussing this?

- Dan G

[brenthutch 388]

When Kallend jumped the shark with:

"Did you ever notice how cold ice floats on warmer water?"

[lawrocket 3]

DanG

Quote

Ice floats because it is less dense than water. It is ice because it is colder than liquid water (assuming constant pressure). So he is, in fact correct and, as usual, brenthutch is wrong.

And liquid water has a lower density at 0 degrees C than at 4 degrees C, so he was right about that too.

lawrocket's statement was:

Quote

Until 4 degrees C. Then the density increases. Which is why ice floats

Which implies that ice floats in water because water at 4C is denser than at other temperatures. That's wrong. Ice floats in water because ice at any temperature is less dense than water at any temperature. And yes, I mean ice in its naturally occurring form, not an exotic alotope that doesn't exist on Earth except in a lab.

Why are we even discussing this?

To be clear. Water increases in density as the temperature lowers until 4 degrees C. Or if moving up on the temperature scale increases. Peak density is 4 degrees. Warmer than that is less dense. Colder than that is less dense. Ice is even less dense and will float.

Second post was wrong.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[brenthutch 388]

Do you even understand phase change?

[lawrocket 3]

brenthutch

Do you even understand phase change?

There might be a thousand people who ever lived on the planet who know more about the subject than him.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[winsor 187]

brenthutch

Do you even understand phase change?

'Set Phase Change on Stun!'

[lawrocket 3]

brenthutch

Do you even understand phase change?

There might be a thousand people who ever lived on the planet who know more about the subject than him.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 1,648]

brenthutch

Do you even understand phase change?

Better than you do.

Do you understand temperature?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[brenthutch 388]

kallend

***Do you even understand phase change?

Better than you do.

Do you understand temperature?

I understand heat and temperature.

[kallend 1,648]

brenthutch

******Do you even understand phase change?

Better than you do.

Do you understand temperature?

I understand heat and temperature.

You claimed that temperature is not relevant to density of H2O.

Maybe in your denier kitchen the icemaker is attached to the stove. In non-denier kitchens the icemaker is attached to the refrigerator.

Phase diagram for water. Notice that ice is the LOW TEMPERATURE phase.

Phase diagram for water/NaCl. Notice that for all ocean salt contents, that ice is the LOW TEMPERATURE phase.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[brenthutch 388]

kallend

*********Do you even understand phase change?

Better than you do.

Do you understand temperature?

I understand heat and temperature.

You claimed that temperature is not relevant to density of H2O.


I made no such claim. Reading comprehension ....anyone....?

[kallend 1,648]

brenthutch

************Do you even understand phase change?

Better than you do.

Do you understand temperature?

I understand heat and temperature.

You claimed that temperature is not relevant to density of H2O.


I made no such claim. Reading comprehension ....anyone....?

"BTW Ice floats because it is less dence ( due to hydrogen bonds creating a crystalline structure), not because it is cold."

It is less dense BECAUSE it is crystalline, and it is ONLY crystalline BECAUSE it is cold.

dG = dH - TdS - SdT

The crystalline structure has lower entropy so it is favored at low temperatures.

But feel free to put your ice cube tray in the oven.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[brenthutch 388]

Nice, we finally agree that cold = ice. Inversely ice = cold. I think we can agree that cold is the opposite of warm. With that in mind, take a look at this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/wp/2013/09/23/antarctic-sea-ice-hit-35-year-record-high-saturday/

If that does not work, take a look out of your window.
Think of Occam's razor.

[ChrisD 0]

You might want to consider this:

Slip in Slide

And any discussion about water needs to include something called : "Insolation." This is the other indicator that everyone completely ignores, this is what is killing us at the moment. How convenient that this subject gets repeatedly ignored. And it is purely a mathematical discussion, it can not be reduced to discussion and words or opinioons, which is why once again any "real" scientist, not one who has the publish or perish doctrine as their personal golden rule as their moral yardstick, well anyways, this mathematical discussion is what keeps laypeople, who vote, in the dark. So back to my interruption here: Insolation, and what real scientists are doing??? Right back to "trigger points," science guided not by empirical facts and natural phenomenon, but political action tailored to public opinion. In other words when sunscreen is the most valuable commodity on earth, well the Koch Brothers will corner tha market on that stuff as well,.....

Trigger points, doomsday scenarios being planned right now at a college or University near you! Somebody call Havaard, MIT, Stanford, etc,...and just ask if they have contingency plans for moving to higher ground??? Just that point alone: "do they have plans????"

Ok, guys, sorry to interrupt, back to your conversation, sorry,...

C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[kallend 1,648]

brenthutch

Nice, we finally agree that cold = ice. Inversely ice = cold. I think we can agree that cold is the opposite of warm. With that in mind, take a look at this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/wp/2013/09/23/antarctic-sea-ice-hit-35-year-record-high-saturday/

OK:

The increasing ice is especially perplexing since the water beneath the ice has warmed, not cooled.
“The overwhelming evidence is that the Southern Ocean is warming,” said Jinlun Zhang, a University of Washington scientist, studying Antarctic ice. “Why would sea ice be increasing? Although the rate of increase is small, it is a puzzle to scientists.”
In a new study in the Journal of Climate, Zhang finds both strengthening and converging winds around the South Pole can explain 80 percent of the increase in ice volume which has been observed.
“The polar vortex that swirls around the South Pole is not just stronger than it was when satellite records began in the 1970s, it has more convergence, meaning it shoves the sea ice together to cause ridging,” the study’s press release explains. “Stronger winds also drive ice faster, which leads to still more deformation and ridging. This creates thicker, longer-lasting ice, while exposing surrounding water and thin ice to the blistering cold winds that cause more ice growth.”

Quote

If that does not work, take a look out of your window.
Think of Occam's razor.

Oh, the old "weather = climate" line again.

Yes, it will be nice when the polar vortex goes back to its normal programming.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

[Reply]And any discussion about water needs to include something called : "Insolation." This is the other indicator that everyone completely ignores, this is what is killing us at the moment.

[lawrocket 3]

That is but another explanation. Explanations are numbering in the dozens now. Each with different proposed mechanisms. Why is everyone out there trying to explain why Antarctic sea ice is increasing? Answer: because it is absolutely contrary to the models. Predictions were totally the opposite. Arctic is generally trending with what was expected. But Antarctic sea ice is showing a definite limit to climate models.

I can admit that I am finding greater simple elegance to your previous suggestion that the coastal seawater is being diluted by increased runoff. Reason is because the mechanism makes sense. We all know most of Antarctica is a desert because most of it is so cold that the air can't hold moisture to precipitate. An increase of temperature will result in an increase of precipitation. It doesn't snow at minus 40. It does at minus 20.

The effect is increased accretion of snow/ice. As well as increased ablation. Leading to more runoff that is not necessarily older ice.

There is even a study suggesting that climate change is causing an increase of rainfall in the Southern Ocean, further diluting the surface (the atmosphere transferring water from northern to southern areas).

All pretty interesting. And unpredicted. The science looks far from settled.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 1,648]

lawrocket

That is but another explanation. Explanations are numbering in the dozens now. Each with different proposed mechanisms. Why is everyone out there trying to explain why Antarctic sea ice is increasing? Answer: because it is absolutely contrary to the models. Predictions were totally the opposite. Arctic is generally trending with what was expected. But Antarctic sea ice is showing a definite limit to climate models.

I can admit that I am finding greater simple elegance to your previous suggestion that the coastal seawater is being diluted by increased runoff. Reason is because the mechanism makes sense. We all know most of Antarctica is a desert because most of it is so cold that the air can't hold moisture to precipitate. An increase of temperature will result in an increase of precipitation. It doesn't snow at minus 40. It does at minus 20.

The effect is increased accretion of snow/ice. As well as increased ablation. Leading to more runoff that is not necessarily older ice.

There is even a study suggesting that climate change is causing an increase of rainfall in the Southern Ocean, further diluting the surface (the atmosphere transferring water from northern to southern areas).

All pretty interesting. And unpredicted. The science looks far from settled.

I think you are confusing change itself with an indicator of change. Sea ice extent is just an indicator, it is not climate change.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.