Global warming traps scientists in ice

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Quote

So it's up to policy. That policy should have been clarified 40 years ago. But it doesn't appear that Congress is willing to clarify it.

Good luck with that.

Georgia, Alabama, and Florida have been fighting (in court, mainly) over water from the Chatahoochee River for many decades now. The problem is Atlanta has grown so big it essentially depletes the river before it ever gets to Alabama, much less Florida. If it wasn't for sewer recharge (water from the treatment plants) going back into the river downstream of Atlanta, the river would be essentially dry. Rather than negotiate meaningful limits on water use to ensure enough makes it to Alabama and Florida (not to mention Georgia cities downstream of Atlanta), the Georgia legislature wastes it's time on hairbrained schemes like moving the state border 2 miles north, so they can divert yet more water from the Tennessee River. The "logic" behind this move is that (allegedly) surveyors made a mistake when the Georgia/Tennessee border was set, and correcting that mistake now (200 years after the fact) would put a bend of the river (plus most of Chattanooga) in Georgia. A big pipe from the river bend to Atlanta would be all that would be needed to give Atlanta all the water it needs, well for 100 years or so until the city outgrew that additional supply.

The problem is this:
1: water = growth (in population and industry)
2: growth = tax revenue
3: tax revenue = power (for politicians)

Asking politicians to agree on shared water resources is like asking them to chop off their hand, they are not going to do it unless there is no other option.

I have wondered about what kind of issues could prompt the US to try to take over Canada. I could think of only two things, water and oil. Well, that and maybe poutine. All are limiting resources in the US and abundant in Canada.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[lawrocket 3]

I don't disagree with a thing you wrote. California is litigating water issues and has been for decades. Here, the system was set up for cities and farming. In the 1970s a new player was put in - the environment. And policies for balancing the allocation of water haven't been balanced.

Which leads to court challenges. It's pretty amazing that courts are being asked to regulate water usage. Basically being stuck trying to balance policies because the other two branches don't want to worry about it.

But, yes, urban areas are great for revenues. Governments make a lot more money off of concrete and asphalt than off of farms. And there are way fewer voters. Fuck em.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 1,651]

ChrisD

the folks in Chicago see it that they don't want anyone touching their water!! Wonder what the Canadians think about this? Somebody tell me where is Ida Tarbell when you need her!!!

C

I wonder how the folks in Texas, N. Dakota and Oklahoma would feel about Illinois, Michigan and Indiana taking their oil and gas.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

kallend

*** the folks in Chicago see it that they don't want anyone touching their water!! Wonder what the Canadians think about this? Somebody tell me where is Ida Tarbell when you need her!!!

C

I wonder how the folks in Texas, N. Dakota and Oklahoma would feel about Illinois, Michigan and Indiana taking their oil and gas.

I wonder how the troposphere feels about the deep ocean taking all its heat.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 1,651]

lawrocket

****** the folks in Chicago see it that they don't want anyone touching their water!! Wonder what the Canadians think about this? Somebody tell me where is Ida Tarbell when you need her!!!

C

I wonder how the folks in Texas, N. Dakota and Oklahoma would feel about Illinois, Michigan and Indiana taking their oil and gas.

I wonder how the troposphere feels about the deep ocean taking all its heat.

The planet doesn't care about anything we do.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[brenthutch 388]

Climate alarmists and warmist spokesman, Bill Nye, confuses the Arctic and Antarctic.

Al Gore and Bill Nye? Really? Can't you guys do any better?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR4GrHPDcWE

[Stumpy 256]

brenthutch

Climate alarmists and warmist spokesman, Bill Nye, confuses the Arctic and Antarctic.

Al Gore and Bill Nye? Really? Can't you guys do any better?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR4GrHPDcWE

Seriously? You are a caricature.

Bill Nye, scientist, engineer, interested in empirical data and evidence.
Marsha Blackburn, politician, graduate in home economics and book salesman - interested in votes and would not know evidence if she drowned in it.

I'm not a massive Bill Nye fan as it happens, I think there are better spokespeople out there, but it says a lot about the denier lobby that politicians are their only backup.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[brenthutch 388]

Stumpy

***Climate alarmists and warmist spokesman, Bill Nye, confuses the Arctic and Antarctic.

Al Gore and Bill Nye? Really? Can't you guys do any better?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR4GrHPDcWE

Seriously? You are a caricature.
.

Me? I didn't book them NBC did. That said, with regard to NBC, your "caricature" description is still apt.

[ChrisD 0]

kallend

*** the folks in Chicago see it that they don't want anyone touching their water!! Wonder what the Canadians think about this? Somebody tell me where is Ida Tarbell when you need her!!!

C

I wonder how the folks in Texas, N. Dakota and Oklahoma would feel about Illinois, Michigan and Indiana taking their oil and gas.

Good point, More up to the folks that can fund this kind of thinking, kind of the same thinking about the offshore wind projects where the most vocal opposition is concerns about high priced real-estate and "the scenic view" being despoiled.

C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[kallend 1,651]

January 2014

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

John:

Using Media Matters is the opposite of quoting Brent Bozell. They are paid lackeys of George Soros and not scientists and operate as a tax shelter.

Or is it okay to use Media Matters because you agree with them?


Note: There is no surprise in that graph, except the politicization of it. Try posting some science instead of paid rabble rousers' response to it.

And didn't you say that all that heat is at the bottom of the ocean? Make up your mind.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[turtlespeed 212]

lawrocket

John:

Using Media Matters is the opposite of quoting Brent Bozell. They are paid lackeys of George Soros and not scientists and operate as a tax shelter.

Or is it okay to use Media Matters because you agree with them?


Note: There is no surprise in that graph, except the politicization of it. Try posting some science instead of paid rabble rousers' response to it.

And didn't you say that all that heat is at the bottom of the ocean? Make up your mind.

I'm curious to find out how the powers that have the numbers can conclude that we had the ability in 1890 to measure temperatures to the 1/10 of a degree, consistently, world wide.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[kallend 1,651]

lawrocket

John:

Using Media Matters is the opposite of quoting Brent Bozell. They are paid lackeys of George Soros and not scientists and operate as a tax shelter.

Shooting the messenger because you can't impeach the source? NOT CLEVER, counselor.

Quote

Or is it okay to use Media Matters because you agree with them?


Note: There is no surprise in that graph, except the politicization of it. Try posting some science instead of paid rabble rousers' response to it.

And didn't you say that all that heat is at the bottom of the ocean? Make up your mind.

Nope. Strawman arguments aren't clever either.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

Shooting the messenger because you can't impeach the source? NOT CLEVER, counselor

I do plan to save this.

Quote

Strawman arguments aren't clever either

Which one is it? You insisted that the heat is there, but it's just in the deep ocean where we can't detect it. Now you're saying the heat is detectable on the surface. I'm suggesting you reconcile these thoughts.

I do note that the graphic came from NOAA. It shows warming and cooling from ground and sea-based thermometers.

I like looking at this one, too. http://nsstc.uah.edu/climate/

One can see agreement and disagreement, and a complete data set. UAH measures lower-troposphere temperatures, so not the land or ocean. It provides just a different perspective.

RSS is pretty cool, too. It gives all kinds of neat things that the press and other climate laypersons never look at or know about. http://www.remss.com/measurements/upper-air-temperature

Yes, that IS a pause in the drop in temperature of the lower troposheric stratosphere.

The more perspectives the better, right? Check out HACRUT and GISS. A broud picture

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 1,651]

lawrocket

Quote

Shooting the messenger because you can't impeach the source? NOT CLEVER, counselor

I do plan to save this.

***Strawman arguments aren't clever either

Which one is it? You insisted that the heat is there, but it's just in the deep ocean where we can't detect it. Now you're saying the heat is detectable on the surface. I'm suggesting you reconcile these thoughts.



It's easy when you read what I actually wrote instead of your prosecuting attorney's version of it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

The issue is the heat. You said the heat's not missing. We know where it is. We just can't find it.

You cited a study that said the heat is in the ocean. That study was meant to explain why the atmosphere hasn't warmed.

Now you're saying the atmosphere has warmed. (Which, by the way, is what new studies are saying. And I'm starting to believe it. Back in the 1960s, we could go to the Moon and read thermometers. Then they said that back in the 60s we didn't know how to read thermometers and adjusted those temps down. Now they're saying that the heat is there and we'd see it if we knew how to read thermometers.)

Note: for anybody who thinks that global warming is a conspiracy, all you have to do is read the science journals. There is absolutely zero coordination. A conspiracy would focus on one explanation for it. Instead, we've got 100 different papers out there all explaining how the climate science community got it all right before but has it all wrong now. All agree - global warming is happening. All have different explanations for why it isn't being seen.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 1,651]

lawrocket

The issue is the heat. You said the heat's not missing. We know where it is. We just can't find it.

You cited a study that said the heat is in the ocean. That study was meant to explain why the atmosphere hasn't warmed.

Now you're saying the atmosphere has warmed.

False.

You are claiming an either/or, which is NOT what I have stated.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

I've been wrong before. The brevity of your post left quite a lot of room for interpretation.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 1,651]

lawrocket

I've been wrong before. The brevity of your post left quite a lot of room for interpretation.

Rehmwa would understand.

However, I have re-read all my posts in this thread and nowhere did I state that all the heat went into the deep ocean, or even imply it. If you inferred that, that's your problem.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[brenthutch 388]

No, only the "missing" heat is hiding at the bottom of the ocean. It is probably co- mingling with the heat coming off of geothermal vents.

BTW Ice floats because it is less dence ( due to hydrogen bonds creating a crystalline structure), not because it is cold.

[ChrisD 0]

brenthutch

No, only the "missing" heat is hiding at the bottom of the ocean. It is probably co- mingling with the heat coming off of geothermal vents.

BTW Ice floats because it is less dence ( due to hydrogen bonds creating a crystalline structure), not because it is cold.

Dense.

You also need to understand that water density changes as a function of temperature, if your going to go that route,...
C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[lawrocket 3]

It is less dense BECAUSE it is cold. Water peaks in density at 4 degrees C.

This sort of grasp doesn't have much benefit.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 1,651]

ChrisD

***No, only the "missing" heat is hiding at the bottom of the ocean. It is probably co- mingling with the heat coming off of geothermal vents.

BTW Ice floats because it is less dence ( due to hydrogen bonds creating a crystalline structure), not because it is cold.

Dense.

You also need to understand that water density changes as a function of temperature, if your going to go that route,...
C

Don't blind him with science.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[brenthutch 388]

lawrocket

It is less dense BECAUSE it is cold. Water peaks in density at 4 degrees C.

This sort of grasp doesn't have much benefit.

Try again. The density of water at freezing temperatures is a function of the unique properties of water, not solely due to a lack of heat. As a rule of thumb, lower temperature = higher density.

[lawrocket 3]

brenthutch

***It is less dense BECAUSE it is cold. Water peaks in density at 4 degrees C.

This sort of grasp doesn't have much benefit.

Try again. The density of water at freezing temperatures is a function of the unique properties of water, not solely due to a lack of heat. As a rule of thumb, lower temperature = higher density.

Until 4 degrees C. Then the density increases. Which is why ice floats.

My wife is hotter than your wife.