Republican alternatives to the ACA aka Obamacare

[lawrocket 3]

I believe you mistake "tough love" for "empathy."

It's nice that you volunteer. Here's the thing: I don't brag about what I do. You, like so many others, point to all the stuff you do to show people how much you care. Probably because people's perception of how much you care is more important to you than actually caring.

Really - why do you go on and on about how much you care and others don't? My thought is that it is because you place a very high value on other people knowing how much you care. Which is selfishness.

The selfless person doesn't brag. The selfless person keeps real does it for others.

[Reply]Why should skydiving related injuries be covered by any group medical insurance policy? Motorcycle crash injuries? Skiing/snowboarding injuries?

[jclalor 12]

lawrocket

[Reply]Outside of suturing up a finger, how does your clinic handle labs, imaging, chemo and all those little things that keep so many of us alive. What about trauma? Do you all kick in for a compatriot who has had an MI for a full work up at the local trauma center ?

Here's a question: how much should be kicked in for a person who doesn't kick in for himself? I use the example of the skydiver. A rather expensive hobby. Should we kick in for anyone? Everyone?

Because that's where we go from helping to enabling.

[davjohns 1]

Quote

Taxes and insurance premiums are not "taking people's stuff".

Taxes are the cost for living in a civilized society.

Ummm...actually...taxes are definitely 'taking people's stuff'. You can try to justify it. But it is still 'taking people's stuff' by any logical definition.

Your definition of taxes includes your definition of civilized society. My definition of a civilized society costs less. So, all of the taxes I have to pay that are above those necessary for my definition of a civilized society are 'taking my stuff'.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[rushmc 18]

jclalor

***[Reply]Outside of suturing up a finger, how does your clinic handle labs, imaging, chemo and all those little things that keep so many of us alive. What about trauma? Do you all kick in for a compatriot who has had an MI for a full work up at the local trauma center ?

Here's a question: how much should be kicked in for a person who doesn't kick in for himself? I use the example of the skydiver. A rather expensive hobby. Should we kick in for anyone? Everyone?

Because that's where we go from helping to enabling.

[davjohns 1]

jclalor

***[Reply]Outside of suturing up a finger, how does your clinic handle labs, imaging, chemo and all those little things that keep so many of us alive. What about trauma? Do you all kick in for a compatriot who has had an MI for a full work up at the local trauma center ?

Here's a question: how much should be kicked in for a person who doesn't kick in for himself? I use the example of the skydiver. A rather expensive hobby. Should we kick in for anyone? Everyone?

Because that's where we go from helping to enabling.

[turtlespeed 212]

funjumper101

***Explain how a government forcing the youth of america to foot the bill for those with pre existing conditions is a workable solution. Explain to me why a healthy 23 year old would want to take away part of their possibly meager income for something they probably wont need. Obamacare is a joke in itself.

Explain how a government forcing drivers with a perfect driving record to foot the bill for those that aren't is a workable solution. That is how auto insurance works. That is how the FUBAR system of medical insurance we have works.

Perhaps you could do some research on what insurance is, and how it works.

Conflating auto insurance with medical insurance is definitely not quite appropriate.
No one HAS to drive to live a long and healthy life.
Everyone HAS to have medical care of some sort, throughout their entire life.

To easy . . . So is your Auto Insurance required to cover the costs of a new car, whether or not you want a new car or not? Does it provide costs for maintenance? What if you have a flat tire? Does it help you with affording the cost of the mechanic visit?

Or would that be Car Care, as opposed to insurance?

Insurance is for "Just in case".

Look at the black jack table - Dealer flips an ace, they ask if you want insurance - you pay . . . just in case . . . they flip a 10 or better over. The insurance you buy there doesn't hedge against any other losses, and doesn't require you to pay a portion of your winnings. Its there JUST IN CASE.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[turtlespeed 212]

rehmwa

***[Quote]Today my church will serve a holiday dinner to 128 registered guests. Last week we provided food for 250 families. That food is purchased from funds donated by our RWC congregation.

NO NO NO!!!! That's not the way it's supposed to be done. Funjumper doesn't want greedy people like your RWC congregation decided to help people. You must be FORCED to help in the way funjumper wants you to.

You're being your brother's helper. That's not nearly the same as "brother's keeper."

It's incredibly selfish - the government should decide where that food should have been given. Not the people themselves. They must hate children and puppies. Those 250 families should get in line with all the other starving families and not be given favored status by a church just because they look like the church members. Clearly that church must only serve white meat and white milk - if you know what I mean.

Private charity is selfish - those donations should go straight to the US Treasury for 'perfect' disbursement.

for the children

(I'm practicing the 'talk', how'd I do?)

Pretty good - you just forgot to include "redistribution" and "I hate the Rich, they didn't work for their money, it should be given to everyone else!

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[turtlespeed 212]

jclalor

***[Reply]Outside of suturing up a finger, how does your clinic handle labs, imaging, chemo and all those little things that keep so many of us alive. What about trauma? Do you all kick in for a compatriot who has had an MI for a full work up at the local trauma center ?

Here's a question: how much should be kicked in for a person who doesn't kick in for himself? I use the example of the skydiver. A rather expensive hobby. Should we kick in for anyone? Everyone?

Because that's where we go from helping to enabling.

[kallend 1,853]

jclalor

***[Reply]Outside of suturing up a finger, how does your clinic handle labs, imaging, chemo and all those little things that keep so many of us alive. What about trauma? Do you all kick in for a compatriot who has had an MI for a full work up at the local trauma center ?

Here's a question: how much should be kicked in for a person who doesn't kick in for himself? I use the example of the skydiver. A rather expensive hobby. Should we kick in for anyone? Everyone?

Because that's where we go from helping to enabling.

[kallend 1,853]

turtlespeed

Pretty good - you just forgot to include "redistribution" and "I hate the Rich, they didn't work for their money, it should be given to everyone else!

Most "liberals" that I know rather like the rich. They just wish that the rich only got to keep the same % of their income as the middle class, instead of the favored rate that they got by buying the Congress.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

[Reply]Conflating auto insurance with medical insurance is definitely not quite appropriate.
No one HAS to drive to live a long and healthy life.
Everyone HAS to have medical care of some sort, throughout their entire life.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quote

hen you need sign up people for the express reason that they are needed to pay for what they THINK THEY won't use then doesn't that say something?

Performance Designs Factory Team

[rehmwa 2]

funjumper101

I do give a shit about those less fortunate than I. I volunteer at a local food bank distribution point every other weekend. I help rebuild old PCs for a program that donates them to poor families with school age children. I pass along PCs retired by clients to the PC rebuild program. I actually do productive things to help those less fortunate, using the skills I have. What do you do to help them out?
I would bet that the RWCs would want the PC donation program to verify the immigration status of the recipients.

how selfish of you to choose where to give your charity as an individual

you need to stop those activities and immediately offer your time and effort directly to the US government - they'll tell you how to exactly give of yourself.

I think we need a law to force people to do their charity against a government issued time table and schedule. Government knows best. People shouldn't be allowed to do charity based on their personal inclinations - what a waste.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

lawrocket

Here's a question: how much should be kicked in for a person who doesn't kick in for himself? I use the example of the skydiver. A rather expensive hobby. Should we kick in for anyone? Everyone?

Because that's where we go from helping to enabling.

I like your Venn diagram. But, anecdote here, so meaningless.

My brother in law is a caring and intelligent guy. Super nice, empathic and so far left it's ridiculous. He's a teacher. If he drew that Venn diagram, the 'enabling' space would be non-existent. He is very adamant that most people have zero chance, zero control, over their lives. They are helpless to change their lives. I wonder if he actually tells his kids that to their faces. this is how many people actually think - everybody is incapable, stupid, and almost like livestock and they want to care for them like they would a pet.

The intentions are great, but I just can't help but think more highly of my fellow man. The very basic premise is what's different, not the intentions.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[turtlespeed 212]

rehmwa

***Here's a question: how much should be kicked in for a person who doesn't kick in for himself? I use the example of the skydiver. A rather expensive hobby. Should we kick in for anyone? Everyone?

Because that's where we go from helping to enabling.

I like your Venn diagram. But, anecdote here, so meaningless.

My brother in law is a caring and intelligent guy. Super nice, empathic and so far left it's ridiculous. He's a teacher. If he drew that Venn diagram, the 'enabling' space would be non-existent. He is very adamant that most people have zero chance, zero control, over their lives. They are helpless to change their lives. I wonder if he actually tells his kids that to their faces. this is how many people actually think - everybody is incapable, stupid, and almost like livestock and they want to care for them like they would a pet.

The intentions are great, but I just can't help but think more highly of my fellow man. The very basic premise is what's different, not the intentions.

How can it possibly be great intentions when you believe that way.
It seems misplaced at the very least, if not actually damaging to the students psyche. Definitely not good intentions.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rehmwa 2]

turtlespeed

How can it possibly be great intentions when you believe that way.
It seems misplaced at the very least, if not actually damaging to the students psyche. Definitely not good intentions.

no, this applies to some degree to huge segment of the population (if I stated it in a more measured way) and people are decent.

it depends on your truly felt perspective - they absolutely believe in the utter helplessness of people and they want to care for them

that's good intentions and I admire it -I just don't agree with the degree they take or the basis for why they think it's right. If I acted as they wish, I'd feel horrible for my arrogance and mistreatment I'm creating. BUT - I don't think they are doing it out of arrogance, or that they feel they are mistreating and underestimating people. That's just a strawman and projection.

two people can do the exact same things for completely different reasons - that's why funjumpers' typical tirades are completely a waste of time - and why his original post here was actually pretty decent in comparison - looking for clarity, not bashing. until the bashing started later anyway

in the end, intentions don't matter - just effectiveness and results need to be seen to validate who was right, or to what degree each was right in the correct mix.


it's why the high level debate is so difficult -

one group - taking care of the populace past a certain debated line is needed and compassionate and the 'right thing to do'

the other group - taking care of the populace past that line is crippling and cruel and disrespectful and clearly the 'wrong thing to do'

both sides have good intentions - but neither group is willing to acknowledge that.....are they? (wait for the following responses where people agree with one side and refuse to believe the other - tied to a bash)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[lawrocket 3]

ianmdrennan

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hen you need sign up people for the express reason that they are needed to pay for what they THINK THEY won't use then doesn't that say something?

Right. They take a risk. They don't want the peace of mind. They think they won't need it. They are frequently correct. They are sometimes wrong.

Why do people not think they need it? Part of the equation is the knowledge that if they get hurt, they'll get treatment. No matter what. They'll get treatment whether they are insured or not.

This has been institutionalized. Someone else will cover it. So now there's a system that encourages people to get insurance. In the cost-benefit analysis, for many of them paying a 2% fine is a better economic deal than paying $500 per month for insurance. Hence there is the real fear that it won't work - because the people most needed to make it work will stay out. Even a $5,000 penalty is less than $500 per month. And it can only be taken from a tax refund.

It seems a given - everybody knows that this thing isn't working as intended. Or going to work as intended. But they're chugging along because to go and fix it means admitting a failure. And in politics, that's something that just cannot be done.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

Of course. I view it as a faith in people versus lack of faith.

Some take it upon themselves to encourage. Other discourage. Encouragement, to me, indicates that the person views a fundamental equality. On the other hand, a person who tells others that they cannot succeed inherently does so from a position of authority. For a teacher - who is tasked with arming their students to succeed - to deliberately sap the motivation from his charges is inexcusable to me.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[DaVinci 0]

"A society that aims for equality before liberty will end up with neither equality nor liberty" - Friedman.

And those of us that have had US govt provided HC know how bad it really is. A personal example: I am a service connected disabled vet. I have to go 2-3 times a year to chat with the VA, have some blood work done, check on my condition.... Basically a checkup. I got the letter in the mail that it is time to schedule my visit. So on 12/4 I called. When is the first available appointment? 1/24. But they can squeeze me in to see the Phlebotomist on 12/24!!!!

I would not call that "good" by any stretch of the imagination.

But why did the Dems oppose the ACA when the Heritage Foundation supported it?

And how to fix the problem we have? A big first step would be tort reform. Why do the Dems not support that? How does expensive insurance benefit a citizen?

[DaVinci 0]

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It came from the Heritage Foundation, which was all in favor until Obama embraced it, then Heritage and the conservatives had an about face.

to be fair that was before it was tried. Even Romney supported it, then he actually ran a State that had it and didn't like it.

You are allowed to change an opinion when new data becomes available.