Will there be a second civil war in the USA?

[weekender 0]

kelpdiver

***
What brought Enron down was NOT energy trading BUT financial fraud. they reported profits they did not have. So energy regulation played no part in it. you could argue it was financial regulation that failed. I would have to agree but that was no ones argument.

And again, no one was talking about what brought Enron down. The discussion was about how these regulated monopolies did not act in the public's interest, but instead pursued profits, like any other purely capitalistic company.

Also pretty sure that Enron got caught playing the shutdown game. Again done in quasi legal, but highly unethical manners. But it really doesn't matter which of them it was for this discussion.

I feel what you are saying makes perfectly good sense, however, that is not how i interpreted the other posters comments. i understand your point but am not fully convinced it was theirs. i suppose it doesnt matter how we got here, your point is valid and i dont think any reasonable person would disagree.

If i misread, i apologize. Hopefully my comments were of some value in respect to Enron and some common misconceptions.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[Andy9o8 0]

The point was to respond to the slander of Dems never serving and Repubs never draft dodging. Read the fucking thread next time before blowing it out your ass.

[billvon 2,434]

>Enron committed fraud. they were an energy trading firm who booked fake profits
>from real time electric trading. it had nothing to do with a regulated or
>unregulated utilities.

Of course it did. Early on in the crisis it hit upon a great strategy - shut down some of their plants then charge massive amounts for energy from other plants. On one day early in the crisis, California had a demand of 28GW and a potential supply of 45GW. Enron told plant operators to shut down for maintenance until the total dropped far below 45GW.

This was all legal. Enron (or more correctly Enron subsidiaries) operated those plants and had the right to choose maintenance schedules to maximize their profits.

They then jacked up the prices that they sold power to utilities. Utilities could buy on an open market (the CAL-ISO exchange) but they had to buy power. So if they managed to shut down enough plants, and they had no alternative, they had to pay whatever the remaining generators charged.

Again, this was all legal. They could charge whatever they wanted for power on the power exchange.

In a completely free market, the utilities could have just said "the hell with you," not bought any power and shut down large segments of the grid. In a completely free market, if this happened often enough, customers would choose a new utility, who would come in and put in all new power poles, transformers etc to service them, and who would utilize different generators. Enron would lose their market share and go out of business.

However, due to how the utilities were unregulated, they were not free to do this. They could not refuse to buy power, and could not black out customers because they didn't like the prices. Consumers in California could not choose to have the Long Island Power Authority come in and install a new grid. Thus due to this half regulated/half unregulated model, Enron was able to distort the market to make themselves a lot of money.

(Needless to say they did far more to game their markets than that - much of which was illegal.)

[kelpdiver 2]

DaVinci

So you only listed bad republicans and good dems.... Yep, no bias there.

How about you list the all Dems that did not serve and all the R's that did as well?

Or would that not fit your agenda?

The truth appeared to be his agenda.

Can you augment Gravitymaster's list of serving Republicans? It needs all the help it can get.

[Gravitymaster 0]

DaVinci

So you only listed bad republicans and good dems.... Yep, no bias there.

How about you list the all Dems that did not serve and all the R's that did as well?

Or would that not fit your agenda?

He didn't list them because it wasn't on the site he plagiarized that list from.

[DaVinci 0]

Andy9o8

The point was to respond to the slander of Dems never serving and Repubs never draft dodging. Read the fucking thread next time before blowing it out your ass.

Temper get you much?

[regulator 0]

Andy9o8

The point was to respond to the slander of Dems never serving and Repubs never draft dodging. Read the fucking thread next time before blowing it out your ass.

------------------------------------------------------------
Do you need a tissue to wipe away your seepage?

[turtlespeed 212]

Andy9o8

The point was to respond to the slander of Dems never serving and Repubs never draft dodging. Read the fucking thread next time before blowing it out your ass.

Just sayin'

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[RonD1120 58]

turtlespeed

***The point was to respond to the slander of Dems never serving and Repubs never draft dodging. Read the fucking thread next time before blowing it out your ass.

Just sayin'

Aw c'mon guys, you know the judge has difficulty when folks don't respect his rulings. Be thankful he doesn't have a method for bitcoin fines for contempt.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Gravitymaster 0]

DaVinci

***The point was to respond to the slander of Dems never serving and Repubs never draft dodging. Read the fucking thread next time before blowing it out your ass.

Temper get you much?

Anger leading to a personal attack, can be a sign of stymied personal growth. Or hemmoroids.

[Andy9o8 0]

http://dailyman40.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/stymie-little-rascals-640x330.jpg

[kelpdiver 2]

RonD1120

******The point was to respond to the slander of Dems never serving and Repubs never draft dodging. Read the fucking thread next time before blowing it out your ass.

Just sayin'

Aw c'mon guys, you know the judge has difficulty when folks don't respect his rulings. Be thankful he doesn't have a method for bitcoin fines for contempt.

I'm sure he noticed that none of you have managed to add any GOP names. A lot of huffing and puffing about unfairness or selective naming, but so far it looks like total victory for the current Democrats on armed service.

[weekender 0]

billvon

>Enron committed fraud. they were an energy trading firm who booked fake profits
>from real time electric trading. it had nothing to do with a regulated or
>unregulated utilities.

Of course it did. Early on in the crisis it hit upon a great strategy - shut down some of their plants then charge massive amounts for energy from other plants. On one day early in the crisis, California had a demand of 28GW and a potential supply of 45GW. Enron told plant operators to shut down for maintenance until the total dropped far below 45GW.

This was all legal. Enron (or more correctly Enron subsidiaries) operated those plants and had the right to choose maintenance schedules to maximize their profits.

They then jacked up the prices that they sold power to utilities. Utilities could buy on an open market (the CAL-ISO exchange) but they had to buy power. So if they managed to shut down enough plants, and they had no alternative, they had to pay whatever the remaining generators charged.

Again, this was all legal. They could charge whatever they wanted for power on the power exchange.

In a completely free market, the utilities could have just said "the hell with you," not bought any power and shut down large segments of the grid. In a completely free market, if this happened often enough, customers would choose a new utility, who would come in and put in all new power poles, transformers etc to service them, and who would utilize different generators. Enron would lose their market share and go out of business.

However, due to how the utilities were unregulated, they were not free to do this. They could not refuse to buy power, and could not black out customers because they didn't like the prices. Consumers in California could not choose to have the Long Island Power Authority come in and install a new grid. Thus due to this half regulated/half unregulated model, Enron was able to distort the market to make themselves a lot of money.

(Needless to say they did far more to game their markets than that - much of which was illegal.)

Ok, i get the point you are trying to make. Kelpdiver explained it. for some reason, and i accept it might be me, i tend to misunderstand your posts.

i know this does not effect your thesis but for the record, Enron did NOT shut down plants. it was Duke energy who did it. I'm not sure if you read my previous post but i explain Enron's unethical trading. it was explained to me this morning by a former Enron analyst i called in Houston. it does not involve shutdowns.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[kelpdiver 2]

weekender

i know this does not effect your thesis but for the record, Enron did NOT shut down plants. it was Duke energy who did it. I'm not sure if you read my previous post but i explain Enron's unethical trading. it was explained to me this morning by a former Enron analyst i called in Houston. it does not involve shutdowns.

again, no. And forgive me for not treating a former Enron analyst as reliable on the subject.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/04/national/04energy.html?_r=0

[livendive 8]

rickjump1

***Well a lot of people have a lot of opinions regarding this subject. Do you think that there will be a second American Civil War? If so what do you think will start it?

Truth or pure bullshit? Obamacare has divided this country more than the Civil War.

Complete and utter bullshit.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[livendive 8]

jgoose71

There won't be a civil war. I would describe it more as a "political upheaval".

Our current system is getting to be more and more broken by the day and is representing the average American less and less.

The problem is the average American is to ill informed now a days to know what the problem is or how to fix it because our "free press" doesn't do it's job anymore.

So ya, call it what ever they were doing in Greece...

I agree with all of this. The average American is either utterly clueless as to the problems and potential solutions or they are spoonfed opinions by what passes today for "media" (pro tip...if you're primarily reading, watching, or listening to opinion pieces rather than facts, you're one of the latter).

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[turtlespeed 212]

livendive

(pro tip...if you're primarily reading, watching, or listening to opinion pieces rather than facts, you're one of the latter).

Blues,
Dave

Where are these "facts" you speak of located?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[RonD1120 58]

kelpdiver

*********The point was to respond to the slander of Dems never serving and Repubs never draft dodging. Read the fucking thread next time before blowing it out your ass.

Just sayin'

Aw c'mon guys, you know the judge has difficulty when folks don't respect his rulings. Be thankful he doesn't have a method for bitcoin fines for contempt.

I'm sure he noticed that none of you have managed to add any GOP names. A lot of huffing and puffing about unfairness or selective naming, but so far it looks like total victory for the current Democrats on armed service.

It wasn't my argument. My only point was that Kerry made false statements to the Senate regarding the behavior of the military in Vietnam. The vets I know think he is a piece of crap. Some in the VVA accept him because they supported the VVAW at the time.

I responded to Andy9o8's lists post and he chose to ignore me.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[weekender 0]

kelpdiver

***
i know this does not effect your thesis but for the record, Enron did NOT shut down plants. it was Duke energy who did it. I'm not sure if you read my previous post but i explain Enron's unethical trading. it was explained to me this morning by a former Enron analyst i called in Houston. it does not involve shutdowns.

again, no. And forgive me for not treating a former Enron analyst as reliable on the subject.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/04/national/04energy.html?_r=0

Well that certainly seems to be contrary to what ive always believed. I spoke with him this morning and he has changed his tune a bit. he said it is certainly possible they shut down a plant but was not the core of what they were doing, as apposed to Duke. So i will admit for both of us that we were wrong. Not the first or last time im sure.

for the record, he is not a former Enron analyst. he is an analyst who covered the company Enron formerly. Very different things. in his defense, i probably asked the question in a leading manner because i wanted to be right.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

I'm sure he noticed that none of you have managed to add any GOP names.

Allan West.

Quote

but so far it looks like total victory for the current Democrats on armed service

Obama - Nope
Biden - Nope
Clinton - Nope
Reid - Nope

I would not claim "total victory"

http://www.whoserved.com/senate.asp
Republicans with military service: 14%
Democrats with military service: 12%

[davjohns 1]

Will there be a second civil war in the USA?

Hard to say. Some historians suggest that only about 10% of the population participated in the American Revolution. According to this poll, three times that percentage of this forum think something is going to happen.

I think pressure for change is more significant in our country now than ever before in my lifetime. I think something is going to give. Perhaps in an explosive manner. Whether that will involve acts of violence or not remains to be seen. I hope not. But the use of violence against non-combatants has become pretty popular worldwide lately.

It seems many people are 'mad as hell and not going to take it anymore'. The question is, who are they taking it from? How do they thwart their nemesis? They apparently blow themselves up in a public forum to express their frustration with no clear purpose in mind.

I think the mass fraud media and the belief that anything on the internet must be true has lead to the best misinformed public in history. They say wars begin when politicians lie to the media and then believe what they hear in the news. How much more so when the media helps in the lie?

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[kelpdiver 2]

weekender

for the record, he is not a former Enron analyst. he is an analyst who covered the company Enron formerly. Very different things.

it is, but I never thought of him as anything other than what you said.

no, the problem is that analysts have shown a pretty terrible track record for the past 15 years about seeing impending downturns for the companies they cover. By the time they finally get around to lowering their ratings, the stock has already tanked. Might have something to do with the inherent conflict of interest of supporting their big clients - these companies.

[kelpdiver 2]

davjohns

I think the mass fraud media and the belief that anything on the internet must be true has lead to the best misinformed public in history. They say wars begin when politicians lie to the media and then believe what they hear in the news. How much more so when the media helps in the lie?

It was a lot easier to lie with the media where there was less of it. Hearst controlled a huge portion of newspapers, and there was nothing else to contradict him. Now anyone can publish. And any billionaire can start their own news station, it seems (Murdoch, Gore, Turner before)

[kelpdiver 2]

DaVinci

http://www.whoserved.com/senate.asp
Republicans with military service: 14%
Democrats with military service: 12%

W had "military service." That wasn't the topic.

[weekender 0]

kelpdiver

***
for the record, he is not a former Enron analyst. he is an analyst who covered the company Enron formerly. Very different things.

it is, but I never thought of him as anything other than what you said.

no, the problem is that analysts have shown a pretty terrible track record for the past 15 years about seeing impending downturns for the companies they cover. By the time they finally get around to lowering their ratings, the stock has already tanked. Might have something to do with the inherent conflict of interest of supporting their big clients - these companies.

buy sell and hold are mandated by finra to supposedly protect retail. banks, analyst and PM's dont pay much attention to them. they must publish within the guidelines of finra and the research over sight committee, which goes off regulators guidelines. so their rating is nothing more than a starting point to a conversation that usual goes like this, "i see you have a hold, what do you really think given my portfolios model?"

analyst predictions are not weighted heavily on the institutional side. their job is to help the PM make decisions. tell him things he cannot find in the papers or during a tour of the facility. things that only a nerd who dedicates his life to a space would know.

i am NOT implying the ratings are not honest. im just saying that being forced to make a 6 month or 12 month prediction is not something they actually prefer to do. or think they are very good at. its mandated by finra and the regulators.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante