How did this even make it to court?

[livendive 8]

It would seem to me that anyone with even the slightest understanding of the 4th amendment would not be able to defend this with a straight face. It almost begs to invoke Godwin in the first post.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Kennedy 0]

It was class action because of racial accusations. The problem with that is that more cops work higher crime areas than low crime areas and most high crime areas are nonwhite. "Cops on dots" is just better allocation of resources. Once you understand voluntary contact vs investigative stop vs search vs arrest, and the levels of cause needed for each, you realize there is nothin wrong with a stop and frisk as long as it meets reasonable suspicion.
My biggest concern, and what I absolutely have no problem believing, it the quotas by another name. While performance metrics and objective standards are important, but when it crosses into "do this many or else", that's a huge problem.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[turtlespeed 212]

livendive

It would seem to me that anyone with even the slightest understanding of the 4th amendment would not be able to defend this with a straight face. It almost begs to invoke Godwin in the first post.

Blues,
Dave

Just as "Crazy Ass Cracka" isn't found offensive in certain communities and cultures, it seems prudent and logical to be able to protect yourself as a LEO in some areas where the violence is prevalent.

Ask yourself if a LEO is, in certain circumstances in the equivalent of a war zone.

Then, ,look at what those in a war zone wear as protection and how they conduct themselves in those areas.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[DanG 1]

Quote

Ask yourself if a LEO is, in certain circumstances in the equivalent of a war zone.

The answer should be pretty much never. The LEOs seem to like to dress up like soldiers, but enforcing the laws on a nation's citizens should be nothing like how a soldier acts in combat. Totally different missions.

- Dan G

[turtlespeed 212]

DanG

Quote

Ask yourself if a LEO is, in certain circumstances in the equivalent of a war zone.

The answer should be pretty much never. The LEOs seem to like to dress up like soldiers, but enforcing the laws on a nation's citizens should be nothing like how a soldier acts in combat. Totally different missions.

When was the last time you were shot at?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[DanG 1]

Quote

When was the last time you were shot at?

2005. You?

- Dan G

[turtlespeed 212]

DanG

Quote

When was the last time you were shot at?

2005. You?

1987

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Bignugget 0]

turtlespeed

***

Quote

Ask yourself if a LEO is, in certain circumstances in the equivalent of a war zone.

The answer should be pretty much never. The LEOs seem to like to dress up like soldiers, but enforcing the laws on a nation's citizens should be nothing like how a soldier acts in combat. Totally different missions.

When was the last time you were shot at?


What escapes me is, if all the people walking around on the streets are armed, and the police are armed, where the hell could the crimes be?

The whole idea of walking around strapped is to keep crime at bay.

With cops and civilians all packing, should be crime free and no need to stop and frisk people for criminal shit.

WTF?

[DanG 1]

Quote

1987

Fascinating. Do you have a point?

- Dan G

[Bignugget 0]

livendive

It would seem to me that anyone with even the slightest understanding of the 4th amendment would not be able to defend this with a straight face. It almost begs to invoke Godwin in the first post.

Blues,
Dave

As a white male sitting pretty much in the middle of all characteristics....I always thought profiling was a good idea.

Kept those useless, mindless cops off my back.

Face it, cops for the most part are poorly educated, gun loving alphas who like to play 'my dick is bigger than yours'.

(obviously not ALL, but I would say its a decent **profile**)

I for one have never thought it a large leap that they simply target a few profiles to fuck with. Easier than actually trying to fight crime, and there are enough bullshit laws these days that the majority of people can get caught up for SOMETHING.

And of course the boss man has to put a pretty label on it and try to dress it up.

Its nice the court acknowledged it.

[turtlespeed 212]

DanG

Quote

1987

Fascinating. Do you have a point?

You must have missed it.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[DanG 1]

Quote

You must have missed it.

Since you never actually made one, I don't see how I could have missed it.

You did ask a question, which I answered. If you disagree with the answer, perhaps you should elucidate.

- Dan G

[Kennedy 0]

Bignugget

As a white male sitting pretty much in the middle of all characteristics....I always thought profiling was a good idea.

Kept those useless, mindless cops off my back.

Face it, cops for the most part are poorly educated, gun loving alphas who like to play 'my dick is bigger than yours'.

(obviously not ALL, but I would say its a decent **profile**)

I for one have never thought it a large leap that they simply target a few profiles to fuck with. Easier than actually trying to fight crime, and there are enough bullshit laws these days that the majority of people can get caught up for SOMETHING.

And of course the boss man has to put a pretty label on it and try to dress it up.

Its nice the court acknowledged it.

Oooh, look! another uninformed and inaccurate post by nugget.

Have you ever interacted with law enforcement officers when they weren't enforcing the law? Have you ever tried talking to them like human beings? Have you ever gone to a community meeting or taken citizen educations courses with your jurisdiction? Have you ever gone on a ride-a-long?
(side note, if you don't like the laws, complain about legislators, not law enforcers)

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[livendive 8]

I can't believe we have people defending the practice of detaining and frisking people for no other reason than they happen to be in a bad neighborhood. What part of

Quote

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

is so easily misconstrued that it justifies "Let me see your papers, and touch you all over. No, I haven't seen you doing anything wrong, but I have a badge, so bend over." If that's the atitude of Americans, what's the complaint about gun control, or NSA snooping, or the Patriot Act? Anyone who feels safer with the police having that kind of authority has already waived their right to liberty.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[jakee 1,257]

Quote

Just as "Crazy Ass Cracka" isn't found offensive in certain communities and cultures, it seems prudent and logical to be able to protect yourself as a LEO in some areas where the violence is prevalent.

What does that have to do with stop and search quotas?

Quote

Ask yourself if a LEO is, in certain circumstances in the equivalent of a war zone.

No, they're not.

Quote

Then, ,look at what those in a war zone wear as protection and how they conduct themselves in those areas.

Do you want the police to conduct themselves like an occupying army?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Bignugget 0]

Kennedy

***As a white male sitting pretty much in the middle of all characteristics....I always thought profiling was a good idea.

Kept those useless, mindless cops off my back.

Face it, cops for the most part are poorly educated, gun loving alphas who like to play 'my dick is bigger than yours'.

(obviously not ALL, but I would say its a decent **profile**)

I for one have never thought it a large leap that they simply target a few profiles to fuck with. Easier than actually trying to fight crime, and there are enough bullshit laws these days that the majority of people can get caught up for SOMETHING.

And of course the boss man has to put a pretty label on it and try to dress it up.

Its nice the court acknowledged it.

Oooh, look! another uninformed and inaccurate post by nugget.

Have you ever interacted with law enforcement officers when they weren't enforcing the law? Have you ever tried talking to them like human beings? Have you ever gone to a community meeting or taken citizen educations courses with your jurisdiction? Have you ever gone on a ride-a-long?
(side note, if you don't like the laws, complain about legislators, not law enforcers)

You misunderstand me.

I am all about the bullshit laws. That's what the useless cops use against the people they profile, so that I may be left alone.



Have you ever interacted with law enforcement officers when they weren't enforcing the law? Yes.

Have you ever tried talking to them like human beings? I don't know how else to talk to people....is there one?


Have you ever gone to a community meeting or taken citizen educations courses with your jurisdiction? Definitely not.

Have you ever gone on a ride-a-long?

Nope, I am not poorly educated so I chose a different career path. Going out and spending a night sitting in a cop car sounds less than appealing as a hobby.

[DanG 1]

Quote

I can't believe we have people defending the practice of detaining and frisking people for no other reason than they happen to be in a bad neighborhood. What part of
Quote:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
is so easily misconstrued that it justifies "Let me see your papers, and touch you all over. No, I haven't seen you doing anything wrong, but I have a badge, so bend over." If that's the atitude of Americans, what's the complaint about gun control, or NSA snooping, or the Patriot Act? Anyone who feels safer with the police having that kind of authority has already waived their right to liberty.

+1000. Couldn't have said it better.

- Dan G

[Gravitymaster 0]

But yet many of the same people have no problem tossing out the 2nd amendment. I guess we just have a smorgasboard Constitution where we pick and choose the rights we agree with and disregard the ones we don't.

[livendive 8]

Gravitymaster

But yet many of the same people have no problem tossing out the 2nd amendment. I guess we just have a smorgasboard Constitution where we pick and choose the rights we agree with and disregard the ones we don't.

No, ignoring the 2nd amendment is just as wrong.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[lawrocket 3]

And it's being defended STILL on the grounds of public safety. When I even hear a policy is for "public safety" I think, yes, this is a violation of one of the first ten.

Is there anybody out there who is more despotic than Bloomberg? Seriously.

And for another interesting thing from the article: New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly called Scheindlin's finding of racial profiling "disturbing and offensive." Not from the article: Ray Kelly is on the shortlist for DHS Secretary.

“Mr. Kelly might be very happy where he is, but if he's not, I'd want to know about it because obviously, he'd be very well-qualified for the job,” Obama told Univision last month. The president called him “one of the best there is” and an “outstanding leader.”

Note: in June, Kelly was critical of the NSA program. For being secret. Here's a little nugget of how Mike Kelly thinks:
"I think the American public can accept the fact if you tell them that every time you pick up the phone, it's going to be recorded and it goes to the government… I think the public can understand that. I see no reason why that program was placed in the secret category."

This guy actually thinks that the public not only would be okay but SHOULD be okay with every phone conversation being recorded. Which explains his horror at those colored people objecting to being stopped and frisked without probable cause. I mean, how dare they question something done for their own good! Privacy? The 4th Amendment? The guy is a despot.

A month later, Obama paints a flattering picture of him. This is the face of government today, folks.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[DanG 1]

Quote

But yet many of the same people have no problem tossing out the 2nd amendment. I guess we just have a smorgasboard Constitution where we pick and choose the rights we agree with and disregard the ones we don't.

Actually, the driving force behind stop and frisk (Bloomberg), is also against the 2nd. It's not so cut and dried as you seem to think.

- Dan G

[lawrocket 3]

DanG

Quote

But yet many of the same people have no problem tossing out the 2nd amendment. I guess we just have a smorgasboard Constitution where we pick and choose the rights we agree with and disregard the ones we don't.

Actually, the driving force behind stop and frisk (Bloomberg), is also against the 2nd. It's not so cut and dried as you seem to think.

Yep. In order to get the guns, you have to violate several rights. Which is what I've written here all along. Disrespect of one right necessitates disrespect of all of them. In order to demonstrate how much contempt they have for the Second Amendment it is worthwhile to tarnish the 1st, 4th, 14th, and find more to ignore, too.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[DanG 1]

Quote

Yep. In order to get the guns, you have to violate several rights. Which is what I've written here all along. Disrespect of one right necessitates disrespect of all of them. In order to demonstrate how much contempt they have for the Second Amendment it is worthwhile to tarnish the 1st, 4th, 14th, and find more to ignore, too.

I agree.

The flip side of the coin is the people who think the 2nd is untouchable, but the 1st (at least as it applies to non-Christians and lefty newspapers), the 4th (at least as it applies to foreign looking folks), the 5th (at least as it applies to 'enemy combatants'), and the 14th (no qualifications) are disposable.

- Dan G

[weekender 0]

>"I can't believe we have people defending the practice of detaining and frisking people for no other reason than they happen to be in a bad neighborhood"

This is a falsehood. That is not what is happening. The police stop people according to the NY Criminal Procedure Law when, "reasonably suspects that such person is committing, has committed or is about to commit either (a) a felony or (b) a misdemeanor defined in the penal law."

The judge reviewed 19 stops out of 4.4 million. Mr Floyd himself of Floyd v. City of NY, was stopped after police observed him trying numerous keys and jostling a door in a area where a series of violent break ins were reported. The judge felt the pat down was legal but the police should not have asked him to empty his pockets. Does that really sound anything like you and others are implying here?

Another frisk she reviewed was a man, Clive Lino, stopped and frisked because he matched a description of a homicide suspect right down to the same red leather coat. The judge felt the stop was reasonable but the police should not have frisked him. Again, this does not at all sound like what you and others are describing.

as i said in my first sentence, what you are describing is not what is happening. if you want to complain at least be honest about it.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[livendive 8]

Did you read the examples in the article I linked? Maybe this, or this will help clear things up. I'm also opposed to Driving While Black stops, but Breathing While Black is beyond the pale. Have a warrant, witness a violation, or very clear and defensible probable cause, or leave them alone. "He looked like he was thinking about committing a misdemeanor" is bs, and no grounds for detaining and searching someone.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)