Elderly woman dies after Bakersfield nurse "refuses" to do CPR

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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The question that doesn't seem to have been answered here is: Did this 87 year old lady have Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) order?

She did not have such an order.
The decision to not attempt CPR was based entirely on the policy of the facility. It seems the tenants were aware of the policy, at least the woman's daughter (who is a nurse) felt her mom received good care while living there.

An "assisted living facility" is not a nursing home, and is not intended for people who need medical care. It is a place where your meals are prepared for you, housekeepers make your bed and tidy up, social activities are arranged, etc. Which is not to say that I agree with their policy of not rendering first aid, and I don't know how someone who is a registered nurse could stand by (company policy or not) and watch a resident die without lifting a finger other than to call 911. I wonder if there will be some conflict with her professional license. But it seems the residents knew about the policy, and the fact that they chose to live there and didn't move somewhere else implies that they accepted it.

Don

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Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[lawrocket 3]

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And looser pays tort reform would niether help nor hurt anyone

Sure it would. You think there is any such thing as a sure thing in trial? There isn't. Let's say you get hit by a car in a crosswalk. You have $10k in medical bills to pay off. You want to sue. But then you think, "If I sue I may lose and end up paying $50k to the other side for the attorneys."

It's a recipe for lack of cooperation and for chilling people from seeking relief.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

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California Civil Code section 1714.2 reads:

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In order to encourage citizens to participate in emergency medical services training programs and to render emergency medical services to fellow citizens, no person who has completed a basic cardiopulmonary resuscitation course which complies with the standards adopted by the American Heart Association or the American Red Cross for cardiopulmonary resuscitation and emergency cardiac care, and who, in good faith, renders emergency cardiopulmonary resuscitation at the scene of an emergency shall be liable for any civil damages as a result of any acts or omissions by such person rendering the emergency care.

There is no affirmative duty to rescue anybody (not even the government has that duty, as has been demonstrated time and again). But, so long as a person is trained that person gets some immunity.

Problem is, guys like me just have to allege "gross negligence" and it ends up being $100k spend to defend it with lawyers, experts, etc. Thus, thanks to people like me, people aren't willing to help.

I understand it, actually.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[jclalor 12]

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and I don't know how someone who is a registered nurse could stand by (company policy or not) and watch a resident die without lifting a finger other than to call 911

.

If she was not current on her CPR and violated company policy she may not only loose her job but also get sued, Not a very hard choice if you have a house payment and kids.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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California Civil Code section 1714.2 reads:

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In order to encourage citizens to participate in emergency medical services training programs and to render emergency medical services to fellow citizens, no person who has completed a basic cardiopulmonary resuscitation course which complies with the standards adopted by the American Heart Association or the American Red Cross for cardiopulmonary resuscitation and emergency cardiac care, and who, in good faith, renders emergency cardiopulmonary resuscitation at the scene of an emergency shall be liable for any civil damages as a result of any acts or omissions by such person rendering the emergency care.

There is no affirmative duty to rescue anybody (not even the government has that duty, as has been demonstrated time and again). But, so long as a person is trained that person gets some immunity.

Problem is, guys like me just have to allege "gross negligence" and it ends up being $100k spend to defend it with lawyers, experts, etc. Thus, thanks to people like me, people aren't willing to help.

I understand it, actually.

So, do you have any ideas about how the situation could be improved? Or is this another case of "That's just America, love it or leave it"? Of what value are laws such as the one you cite if people who have "completed a basic cardiopulmonary resuscitation course which complies with the standards adopted by the American Heart Association or the American Red Cross for cardiopulmonary resuscitation and emergency cardiac care, "and who, in good faith, "render emergency cardiopulmonary resuscitation at the scene of an emergency" are still subject to being sued? The language of the law seems plain, except I suppose to a lawyer.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Andy9o8 0]

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The language of the law seems plain, except I suppose to a lawyer.

Hmm. What do you mean by that?

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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The language of the law seems plain, except I suppose to a lawyer.

Hmm. What do you mean by that?

I suppose it all depends on what the meaning of "is" is.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[D22369 0]

I was more surprised they did not have an AED close and convenient.

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This is the million dollar question, a facility like this should be required. CPR alone, without an AED within 3-5 minutes is almost worthless


When I took the cpr/ first responder course in portland I was was shocked to find out how lousy the odds are for someone to survive just using cpr actually was - my exposure to cpr prior to an actual class was a crash course in boot camp many years prior and they didnt tell us anything other than how to perform it
we have aed machines installed in every department at work, from what I have been told they have a much higher rate of success

darned movies and tv make it look like cpr is always effective *unless the plot needs a dead victim anyhow

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[jclalor 12]

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darned movies and tv make it look like cpr is always effective *unless the plot needs a dead victim anyhow

Right along with the myth that CPR will start your heart, the other big lie that TV and the movies continue to show is when the line on the heart monitor goes flat and that is when they give the shock. A flat line (asystole) never gets a shock, the only time a shock is delivered is during VF (ventricular fibrillation) or pulseless ventricular tachycardia, these are the two rhythms that an AED is designed to shock.

[BillyVance 34]

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darned movies and tv make it look like cpr is always effective *unless the plot needs a dead victim anyhow

Right along with the myth that CPR will start your heart, the other big lie that TV and the movies continue to show is when the line on the heart monitor goes flat and that is when they give the shock. A flat line (asystole) never gets a shock, the only time a shock is delivered is during VF (ventricular fibrillation) or pulseless ventricular tachycardia, these are the two rhythms that an AED is designed to shock.

All CPR is really good for is to keep air going into the lungs and manually pumping blood from the heart long enough for the EMTs to get there. Sometimes people come back, sometimes they don't.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[billvon 2,470]

>When I took the cpr/ first responder course in portland I was was shocked to find
>out how lousy the odds are for someone to survive just using cpr actually was

Agreed. The primary reason CPR is a good idea is that the person is dead anyway, so you're not going to do any further harm by trying to resuscitate them. In this case (87 year old woman) odds of success are a few percent.

I am sure the family would rather have that few percent than the even lower percentage chance of spontaneous reversion, but it's disingenuous to portray the issue as "she refused to do CPR so the woman died." (And as the OP pointed out, if she had tried to do CPR against the facility's regulations, she'd probably be sued for killing her.)

[Stumpy 256]

You mean Baywatch wasn't a documentary?

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[Southern_Man 0]

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>

I am sure the family would rather have that few percent than the even lower percentage chance of spontaneous reversion

Maybe, but I wouldn't be sure. Unless you have heard the family say something. I heard a newscaster say the family believed she was well cared for but nothing specific. Dying at 87 is not a tragedy.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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Dying at 87 is not a tragedy.

The type of facility she was living in suggests her health was at least good enough that she didn't need a nursing home. Dropping dead of a heart attack at 87 sounds a lot better to me than a protracted debilitating illness or spending the last years with dementia.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[champu 1]

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I am sure the family would rather have that few percent than the even lower percentage chance of spontaneous reversion, but it's disingenuous to portray the issue as "she refused to do CPR so the woman died." (And as the OP pointed out, if she had tried to do CPR against the facility's regulations, she'd probably be sued for killing her.)

A thought-provoking web spun here is that the policy of not performing CPR could be, and probably is, an entirely legal decision rather than a medical one on the part of the facility. However, had the employee been appropriately certified, disregarded the policy, and performed CPR to no avail, it's the disregard for the policy that would likely be one of the stronger arguments against her in showing negligence.

I'm not a lawyer so I don't know how well a defense of, "That policy only exists to keep the facility out of lawsuits like this one and has nothing to do with the health of the tenants," can be substantiated by a defense attorney or received by a judge and/or jury.

[lawrocket 3]

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The primary reason CPR is a good idea is that the person is dead anyway, so you're not going to do any further harm by trying to resuscitate them.

That’s right. Until the person performing CPR breaks a couple of ribs, causes a pneumothorax and requires additional treatments. Or what about a person performs CPR and keeps the person just alive enough to be vegetative. See, a person in California has no duty to come to anyone’s care. But if you do, you have to make sure you don’t cause any further injury. So what if a fully trained person doing CPR would have broken the ribs - doesn't matter.

From a liability standpoint, it’s best to sit back and watch the person’s face change as the last bit of life drains from him or her. Or, pull out the phone and take video and sell it to an online site.

It’s like you all think that good deeds will go unpunished.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[normiss 642]

Had a coworker drop last week.
Massive heart attack according to the doctors.
CPR kept him going until the EMT's arrived - fire station is barely two blocks away.
He has since thanked the two coworkers that broke his ribs, punctured his lung, and saved his life.

[lawrocket 3]

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He has since thanked the two coworkers that broke his ribs, punctured his lung, and saved his life.

Give me his phone number.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Gravitymaster 0]

So I guess screaming "don't walk into the light" doesn't work either?

[normiss 642]

Sweet.
Let's fully advance our society to where we no longer give a fuck about anyone or anything other than ourselves.
Wait a second .....

[Andy9o8 0]

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He has since thanked the two coworkers that broke his ribs, punctured his lung, and saved his life.

Give me his phone number.

You're not licensed in the state.

[lawrocket 3]

Fucked up, isn't it?

Note: these are problems for legislators to solve. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Andy9o8 0]

Give me his phone number.

[billvon 2,470]

>That’s right. Until the person performing CPR breaks a couple of ribs, causes
>a pneumothorax and requires additional treatments.

Well, that's sorta the point. Yes, they have a pneumothorax - but they're also dead, and don't care as much.

[Andy9o8 0]

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>That’s right. Until the person performing CPR breaks a couple of ribs, causes
>a pneumothorax and requires additional treatments.

Well, that's sorta the point. Yes, they have a pneumothorax - but they're also dead, and don't care as much.

Not necessarily: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Zombies-have-feelings-too/168879709884321