Paying Their Fair Share - The Myth

[lawrocket 3]

I apologize for my misinterpretation.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

Wow. I just read that Warren Buffett stated the best reason for increasing the taxes on the wealthy. I understand that he told Matt Lauer that it would be a morale booster for the middle class.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude

Turns out I wasn't off when I said it was merely about socking it to the rich and high earners and pretty much nothing else.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Kennedy 0]

The problem is that it never sticks it to the rich. They have too many ways to avoid paying and always will. The react and adapt faster than legislators, and have more motivation to win. They can avoid taxable activity, increase deduction to reclassify themselves as a lesser bracket, keep everything in corporate class that receives more favorable treatment in all financial areas, or they can just leave the area. Google British million pound earners and see the UK practical experience (beats theory every time).

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[davjohns 1]

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Wow. I just read that Warren Buffett stated the best reason for increasing the taxes on the wealthy. I understand that he told Matt Lauer that it would be a morale booster for the middle class.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude

Turns out I wasn't off when I said it was merely about socking it to the rich and high earners and pretty much nothing else.

Am I the only one who wants to keep taxes about finances and not 'morale'? Numbers really don't care how you feel. I understand that emotions play into discretionary spending, but taxes? I'm really disturbed by that.

Andy: No problem. I'm just interested in your analysis when you get a chance. Thanks.

David

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Some incorrectly use the word taxes when they really mean fine. A person is fined for being successful.

[davjohns 1]

While I wouldn't agree with that sentiment universally, in the case of graduated taxes (and certainly in the case of a tax to raise the morale of the less wealthy), there is an argument.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[DiverMike 5]

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The problem is that it never sticks it to the rich. They have too many ways to avoid paying and always will.

+1

As soon as the death tax exemption goes back to 2 million from 10 million you will see a lot more A|B trust funds set up to avoid inheritance tax. Most rich people got that way by being smart and somewhat greedy. It is a hard group to take advantage of.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[rehmwa 2]

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Wow. I just read that Warren Buffett stated the best reason for increasing the taxes on the wealthy. I understand that he told Matt Lauer that it would be a morale booster for the middle class.

this is the only truth in the motivation

as for 'revenue' collection - it's simple in that government will want as much of the $$ as they can soak from anyone and everyone without losing their voter base too much that they are kept from doing it again and again

fiscal cliff - it'll play out this way

the left will win the battle - they'll refuse to consider "real" spending cuts and stall and stall and stall - until the date passes - then taxes will be increased on everyone. That's their win and what they really want anyway. They can use their effective PR machine to win the battle when both sides try to blame the other side for the situation - enough people think that ONLY tax increases on a small group is enough, they just have to keep playing on that illusion.

maybe the date will be stalled a time or two, but they really should bite on the strategy now and let it happen - it's as ripe as it can get just post-election cycle.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Gravitymaster 0]

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While I wouldn't agree with that sentiment universally, in the case of graduated taxes (and certainly in the case of a tax to raise the morale of the less wealthy), there is an argument.

Perhaps a better description would be reparations. When you consider the contempt and at times, the hostility, for those who have done well by many of those who haven't been as productive, it fits well.

[billvon 2,400]

>When you consider the contempt and at times, the hostility, for those who have
>done well by many of those who haven't been as productive, it fits well.

Most of the time I've seen that in the opposite direction. Look at the contempt that the right wing holds 47% of Americans in.

[lawrocket 3]

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Look at the contempt that the right wing holds 47% of Americans in.

Seems to me it can also be considered a response to the contempt.

It works both ways. We didn't hear about the 47% until the last couple of years of protesting the 1% for not doing enough for them.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>When you consider the contempt and at times, the hostility, for those who have
>done well by many of those who haven't been as productive, it fits well.

Most of the time I've seen that in the opposite direction. Look at the contempt that the right wing holds 47% of Americans in.

Your response demonstrates exactly what I am talking about. I don't know any Republicans who have contempt for those who haven't done well. Most that I know would like to see them do better.

OTOH, demanding reparations from those who worked hard for what they have only furthers the anger and hatered from the lefties and perpetuates the victim mentality. It is the left that has convinced the low output people they NEED government to solve their problems. Some of us reject having things done for us and some relish in it.

I always found it interesting that Obama ran on "Yes we Can" when what he really meant was "but you need government to do it for you".

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Wow. I just read that Warren Buffett stated the best reason for increasing the taxes on the wealthy. I understand that he told Matt Lauer that it would be a morale booster for the middle class.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude

Turns out I wasn't off when I said it was merely about socking it to the rich and high earners and pretty much nothing else.

Am I the only one who wants to keep taxes about finances and not 'morale'?

No, but you don't count because you're not a politician whose job is on the line based on public perception of how you're doing your job. That public

[kallend 1,623]

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Look at the contempt that the right wing holds 47% of Americans in.

Seems to me it can also be considered a response to the contempt.

It works both ways. We didn't hear about the 47% until the last couple of years of protesting the 1% for not doing enough for them the country.

FIFY.

Hard to claim to be a patriot while doing all you can to avoid paying to run the country. 13.9% rate indeed on income of $20+Mil

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,400]

>Seems to me it can also be considered a response to the contempt.

Again, true on both sides. It's the Middle East writ small.

[kallend 1,623]

www.philly.com/philly/business/20121202_How_tax_code_devalues_labor.html

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Great. So we can put you down as supporting a flat tax and eliminating all deductions? Or would you favor a national sales tax?

Oh wait, that's right. You are against anything that doesn't punish successful people.

[kallend 1,623]

www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/12/who-got-the-biggest-tax-break-in-the-last-30-years-the-rich-of-course/265804/?google_editors_picks=true

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,623]

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Great. So we can put you down as supporting a flat tax and eliminating all deductions? Or would you favor a national sales tax?

Oh wait, that's right. You are against anything that doesn't punish successful people.

Taxes are not punishment. They are the dues we pay to belong to an advanced society. It is a travesty that capital gains get more favorable treatment than the fruits of working.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Great. So we can put you down as supporting a flat tax and eliminating all deductions? Or would you favor a national sales tax?

Oh wait, that's right. You are against anything that doesn't punish successful people.

Taxes are not punishment. They are the dues we pay to belong to an advanced society. It is a travesty that capital gains get more favorable treatment than the fruits of working.

If you really believed that, you would want everyone taxed at the same rate.

[kallend 1,623]

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Great. So we can put you down as supporting a flat tax and eliminating all deductions? Or would you favor a national sales tax?

Oh wait, that's right. You are against anything that doesn't punish successful people.

Taxes are not punishment. They are the dues we pay to belong to an advanced society. It is a travesty that capital gains get more favorable treatment than the fruits of working.

If you really believed that, you would want everyone taxed at the same rate.

Your grasp of basic logic, or English (or both) is remarkably poor.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[diverborg 0]

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It is a travesty that capital gains get more favorable treatment than the fruits of working.

Just ponder this for a little while. Every single American in this country with a retirement acct will eventually be paying capital gains tax someday. Raising capital gains is going to make it more difficult for that middle class guy that busted his ass his whole life to make ends meet with what he's managed to scrape up by age 65. Raising capital gains will effect everyone. Not to mention it "could" discourage investing and saving which could cause a whole other slough of problems.

I make roughly 90,000 a year. With all my deductions I pay around 10-15% federal rate (rough guess), assuming I was going to retire now, off of a little less income, and the kids are grown and house paid off, I'm going to be collecting about 75% of my income at 15% tax rate. Manageable, but if we decide to stick it to the capital gainers, the possibility of me retiring before I die, is decreasing rapidly depending on how crazy we get with the rates in the name of fairness.

Everything you attempt to do will have collateral damage on the middle class. Attacking 1% of the population at the cost of everyone with a retirement acct on the basis of them not paying their fair share when those 1% already pay 40% of the taxes, just seems like a path we don't want to go down.

I honestly think we both want the middle class to succeed Kallend, but don't punish me in an attempt to bring down someone that's done better than me.

Now if the country decides to treat capital gains as a regular income tax below age 55 or something along those lines, I've got no problem with that. But even that will have a negative effect on investing. If we want growth, we need investors. That incentive to paying less taxes by investing your money is probably a big part of what will ensure that my acct has grown to a "retireable" figure by the time I hit that age. We all benefit from that. But just jacking up capital gains tax under the premise of the "rich need to pay more" is going to hurt a lot of people.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Great. So we can put you down as supporting a flat tax and eliminating all deductions? Or would you favor a national sales tax?

Oh wait, that's right. You are against anything that doesn't punish successful people.

Taxes are not punishment. They are the dues we pay to belong to an advanced society. It is a travesty that capital gains get more favorable treatment than the fruits of working.

If you really believed that, you would want everyone taxed at the same rate.

Your grasp of basic logic, or English (or both) is remarkably poor.

Pretty funny coming from someone who thinks that someone paying $3.5 million in taxes isn't taxed enough and someone who pays nothing at all is over-taxed.

[kallend 1,623]

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Great. So we can put you down as supporting a flat tax and eliminating all deductions? Or would you favor a national sales tax?

Oh wait, that's right. You are against anything that doesn't punish successful people.

Taxes are not punishment. They are the dues we pay to belong to an advanced society. It is a travesty that capital gains get more favorable treatment than the fruits of working.

If you really believed that, you would want everyone taxed at the same rate.

Your grasp of basic logic, or English (or both) is remarkably poor.

Pretty funny coming from someone who thinks that someone paying $3.5 million in taxes isn't taxed enough and someone who pays nothing at all is over-taxed.

Again you demonstrate that your grasp of basic logic, or English (or both) is remarkably poor.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,623]

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It is a travesty that capital gains get more favorable treatment than the fruits of working.

Just ponder this for a little while. Every single American in this country with a retirement acct will eventually be paying capital gains tax someday. Raising capital gains is going to make it more difficult for that middle class guy that busted his ass his whole life to make ends meet with what he's managed to scrape up by age 65. Raising capital gains will effect everyone. Not to mention it "could" discourage investing and saving which could cause a whole other slough of problems.

I make roughly 90,000 a year. With all my deductions I pay around 10-15% federal rate (rough guess), assuming I was going to retire now, off of a little less income, and the kids are grown and house paid off, I'm going to be collecting about 75% of my income at 15% tax rate. Manageable, but if we decide to stick it to the capital gainers, the possibility of me retiring before I die, is decreasing rapidly depending on how crazy we get with the rates in the name of fairness.

Everything you attempt to do will have collateral damage on the middle class. Attacking 1% of the population at the cost of everyone with a retirement acct on the basis of them not paying their fair share when those 1% already pay 40% of the taxes, just seems like a path we don't want to go down.

I honestly think we both want the middle class to succeed Kallend, but don't punish me in an attempt to bring down someone that's done better than me.

Now if the country decides to treat capital gains as a regular income tax below age 55 or something along those lines, I've got no problem with that. But even that will have a negative effect on investing. If we want growth, we need investors. That incentive to paying less taxes by investing your money is probably a big part of what will ensure that my acct has grown to a "retireable" figure by the time I hit that age. We all benefit from that. But just jacking up capital gains tax under the premise of the "rich need to pay more" is going to hurt a lot of people.

Really not relevant. Working for a living should not be "penalized" (to use your and gravitymaster's silly concept.) There is absolutely no reason that clipping coupons should get more favorable treatment than working.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.