Lefty 0
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QuoteDont you know it is better to have a 12 year old killed,raped,kidnapped, tortoured or whatever than have them defend themselves. They should just wait for a grownup to come help them.Good on th at litle girl for not listenig to our pusified subsection of society.
How many kids successfully defend themselves from a bad guy with a gun, compared to how many kids are accidentally shot and killed with guns each year? The Brady campaign says that 2,200 children are accidentally injured or killed by a handgun each year. They couldn't do that if adults would lock up their guns.
QuoteSeems to me this is a good news story. A man with a history of criminal activity against young girls breaks into a home and actively seeks out the child in the closet
Indeed it was a good ending. Could have just as easily been a really bad ending. The intruder could have taken the gun away from her and used it against her.
And I doubt he was looking in the closet for the girl - he didn't know the house was occupied. He was probably just looking for stuff to steal.
QuoteQuoteDont you know it is better to have a 12 year old killed,raped,kidnapped, tortoured or whatever than have them defend themselves. They should just wait for a grownup to come help them.Good on th at litle girl for not listenig to our pusified subsection of society.
How many kids successfully defend themselves from a bad guy with a gun, compared to how many kids are accidentally shot and killed with guns each year? The Brady campaign says that 2,200 children are accidentally injured or killed by a handgun each year. They couldn't do that if adults would lock up their guns.
Does the Brady Campaign say how many times a child pulled the trigger?
ryoder 1,387
I grew up in a house with a gun cabinet containing an assortment of rifles, (22 up to 30-06), shotguns (.410 up to 12g), and handguns, (22 up to 357). The cabinet had a hidden lock which the members of the family knew how to open. I can't remember what age I learned to shoot them, but it was sometime in grade school. I never had any mishap with any of them.
Now my old man on the other hand, managed to shoot his own car while unloading a 12g.
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.
Lefty 0
QuoteHow many kids successfully defend themselves from a bad guy with a gun, compared to how many kids are accidentally shot and killed with guns each year? The Brady campaign says that 2,200 children are accidentally injured or killed by a handgun each year. They couldn't do that if adults would lock up their guns.
Again, wrong stat. Means nothing. You need to look at how many times a child's access to a loaded gun in the house passes without incident. It's an impossible number to determine, but from a voluntary response sampling of this discussion thread I'd say there are many, many examples that fall into such a statistic. If anyone accidentally shot themselves with a household gun as a kid, please speak up.
Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin
-Calvin
QuoteAgain, wrong stat. Means nothing. You need to look at how many times a child's access to a loaded gun in the house passes without incident. It's an impossible number to determine, but from a voluntary response sampling of this discussion thread I'd there are many, many examples that fall into such a statistic. If anyone accidentally shot themselves with a household gun as a kid, please speak up.
It's hard to speak up when you're dead.
Cool avatar. I'm watching "300" on TV right now.
skypuppy 1
QuoteQuote***
QuoteQuoteQuoteDepends on the kid and depends on the parent. What would you have liked to see happen in this case?
Of course I'm glad the girl is alive, but your argument is based on emotion.
Damn, my comments have been short enough thus far--the least you could do is read them before replying. What part of saying that parents are capable of teaching and kids are capable of learning proper handling of firearms is emotional?
Even before I was 12 I knew where my dad kept the 1911 and I knew how to use it. You know what happened? Nothing. So whose argument gets shot to shit just by that example? Not mine.
I think the greater good is that no child should ever be left alone with a loaded gun.
Viva la difference.
How do you know it was loaded? Maybe she got out some ammo and loaded it herself?
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone
D22369 0
She fired through the closet door - what if it had been her mom?
***
its doubtful that her mom woulda kicked the backdoor in...
I applaud her in taking steps to save herself, although I cringe at someone shooting at a perp they cannot see - but I will not armchair quarterback her decision, she was in the hotseat she made the decision to save herself.
we need more people that dont have the 'victim' mentality in this country - overall as a nation we used to have common sense, but somehow its dribbled away to where those poor misunderstood criminals should get a pass because they were abused as a child. - fuck that, give her a medal
Roy
***
its doubtful that her mom woulda kicked the backdoor in...
I applaud her in taking steps to save herself, although I cringe at someone shooting at a perp they cannot see - but I will not armchair quarterback her decision, she was in the hotseat she made the decision to save herself.
we need more people that dont have the 'victim' mentality in this country - overall as a nation we used to have common sense, but somehow its dribbled away to where those poor misunderstood criminals should get a pass because they were abused as a child. - fuck that, give her a medal
Roy
They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.
skypuppy 1
It is a good story, but the only reason it is a story is do to the rarity of a stranger abducting and or murdering a child. Stories about children shooting and killing other children is all to common, and not very news worthy these days.
I call bullshit. I think there's a hell of a lot more child abductions or murders than you're saying.
1. Yearly around 750,000 children are reported missing in the United States, around 2,000 every day.
2. Most of these are runaways or kids taken by a family member.
3. Around 100 children are abducted and murdered in the U.S. each year. Around 60% of all child-murder abductions are at the hands of someone the child knows, not a stranger.
7. For every successful stranger abduction, there are many more failed attempts. It's hard to know the exact number, as many cases are disregarded by parents and never reported, and record keeping is spotty at best. But based on our own monitoring of news reports, we would estimate around 20 failed attempts for every successful abduction. So while only around 100 children are kidnapped and murdered each year (most by friends and family), countless others are tested! Make sure your child is prepared.
I call bullshit. I think there's a hell of a lot more child abductions or murders than you're saying.
1. Yearly around 750,000 children are reported missing in the United States, around 2,000 every day.
2. Most of these are runaways or kids taken by a family member.
3. Around 100 children are abducted and murdered in the U.S. each year. Around 60% of all child-murder abductions are at the hands of someone the child knows, not a stranger.
7. For every successful stranger abduction, there are many more failed attempts. It's hard to know the exact number, as many cases are disregarded by parents and never reported, and record keeping is spotty at best. But based on our own monitoring of news reports, we would estimate around 20 failed attempts for every successful abduction. So while only around 100 children are kidnapped and murdered each year (most by friends and family), countless others are tested! Make sure your child is prepared.
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone
Arvoitus 1
QuoteHow would you have liked to see this event play out?
She could've ran out of the house and go to the neighbors to wait for the police to show up.
Quote
Never mind that for probably every instance of a child shooting an intruder, 100 left alone with guns will accidently shoot their siblings, parents, and friends.
I'm willing to be that 99 out of 100 times it isn't a kid who has been taught how to responsibly handle firearms but its some kid who has seen some ganstas in some mediocre rap video on MTV flashing their guns around.
Quote
How do you know the gun was loaded? Do you have another news source that definitively states that it was loaded? The supplied news source here only states that the mother told her daughter to go get the family gun and go hide in the closet. There is a chance that the family have already trained their daughter safe operating procedures for firearms (which includes the knowledge of how to load it).
No they had not:
At that point, that for the first time in her life, Kendra fired a gun.
Quote
Seems to me this is a good news story. A man with a history of criminal activity against young girls breaks into a home and actively seeks out the child in the closet and your reaction is "No child should ever be left alone with a gun". Yikes ... how about people who commit prior crimes against children should not be allowed to walk free in society looking to prey upon their next victim.
Where did you get that? The article originally linked didn't mention anything about his possible criminal past. Whereas this article states:
Quote"I was told by the police that he had been homeless for 10 days and that he might have been looking for food,"
Your rights end where my feelings begin.
jclalor 12
QuoteI call bullshit. I think there's a hell of a lot more child abductions or murders than you're saying.
You can call bullshit all day long, facts are facts and I'm not the one that made them. I work with sick and injured children and I have seen plenty brutalized and beaten by their own family, but I have yet to see a child beaten by a stranger.
QuoteAccording to a 2002 federal study on missing children, 99.8 percent of children reported missing were located or returned home alive.80 The remaining 0.2 percent either did not return home or were not found. The study estimated that most of missing children cases involved runaways from juvenile facilities and that only an estimated 0.0068 percent were true kidnappings by a stranger. The primary conclusion of the study was that child abductions perpetrated by strangers rarely occur. However, when they do occur, the results can be tragic
http://www.justice.gov/oig/reports/FBI/a0908/chapter3.htm
QuoteWhere did you get that?
Watch the TV video news report supplied at the top of the webpage. At the very end of the report they say that the man had been arrested in September of 2011 for abducting a 17 year old girl. 17 is still classified as a minor, not an adult in most jurisdictions.
Try not to worry about the things you have no control over
Same here! My dad had a Winchester model 1912, 12-guage that when you racked a shell into the chamber, it would fire. He took the time to teach me about each gun in the house. I wouldn't go near that 12-guage! The bottom line here is, if parents are going to have guns in the house, take the time and teach their kids about those guns and proper handling of them. Take the kids to a range or other safe place and let them shoot the guns. Granted, we have the right to keep and bear arms but just do it right. I believe, that would do away with a lot of the problems of kids and guns.
Chuck
Chuck
skypuppy 1
Quote
QuoteI call bullshit. I think there's a hell of a lot more child abductions or murders than you're saying.
You can call bullshit all day long, facts are facts and I'm not the one that made them. I work with sick and injured children and I have seen plenty brutalized and beaten by their own family, but I have yet to see a child beaten by a stranger.QuoteAccording to a 2002 federal study on missing children, 99.8 percent of children reported missing were located or returned home alive.80 The remaining 0.2 percent either did not return home or were not found. The study estimated that most of missing children cases involved runaways from juvenile facilities and that only an estimated 0.0068 percent were true kidnappings by a stranger. The primary conclusion of the study was that child abductions perpetrated by strangers rarely occur. However, when they do occur, the results can be tragic
http://www.justice.gov/oig/reports/FBI/a0908/chapter3.htm
So how do justify the differences between the figures I quoted, which also come from an fbi site, with the figures you quote?
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone
jclalor 12
Quote***
QuoteQuote
***I call bullshit. I think there's a hell of a lot more child abductions or murders than you're saying.
You can call bullshit all day long, facts are facts and I'm not the one that made them. I work with sick and injured children and I have seen plenty brutalized and beaten by their own family, but I have yet to see a child beaten by a stranger.QuoteAccording to a 2002 federal study on missing children, 99.8 percent of children reported missing were located or returned home alive.80 The remaining 0.2 percent either did not return home or were not found. The study estimated that most of missing children cases involved runaways from juvenile facilities and that only an estimated 0.0068 percent were true kidnappings by a stranger. The primary conclusion of the study was that child abductions perpetrated by strangers rarely occur. However, when they do occur, the results can be tragic
http://www.justice.gov/oig/reports/FBI/a0908/chapter3.htm
So how do justify the differences between the figures I quoted, which also come from an fbi site, with the figures you quote?
It would be helpful if you provided a link to your source.
From your post.
Quote3. Around 100 children are abducted and murdered in the U.S. each year. Around 60% of all child-murder abductions are at the hands of someone the child knows, not a stranger.
40 children (up to the age of 18) are abducted and murdered by strangers a year. Almost 10 times more children (under the age of 15) are killed by accidental firearm deaths per year.
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/01/13/us/accidental-shootings-of-children-raising-concern.html
I own guns, I have my ammo locked in a box and a trigger lock on my rifle and shotgun. Since the odds are much greater that a child will accidently shoot and kill themselves with my gun, as opposed to me needing it to defend myself, I keep them locked.
skypuppy 1
40 children (up to the age of 18) are abducted and murdered by strangers a year. Almost 10 times more children (under the age of 15) are killed by accidental firearm deaths per year.
AI quoted in my post, it is estimated that for every stranger abduction, there are 20 failed abduction attempts. That makes about 800 attempts a year, a seriously large number to me.
AI quoted in my post, it is estimated that for every stranger abduction, there are 20 failed abduction attempts. That makes about 800 attempts a year, a seriously large number to me.
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone
jclalor 12
QuoteAI quoted in my post, it is estimated that for every stranger abduction, there are 20 failed abduction attempts. That makes about 800 attempts a year, a seriously large number to me.
I found this study, I think it bolsters both of our arguments a bit, but the bottom line is that out of all of the bad things that can happen to children, attempted or actual abductions is one of the very least likely to happen.
http://www.unh.edu/ccrc/pdf/MC4.pdf
QuoteQuoteI think the greater good is that no child should ever be left alone with a loaded gun.
How do you know it was loaded? Maybe she got out some ammo and loaded it herself?
The gun and the ammo should both be locked up so that children can't get to them. Even if the gun was unloaded, a child shouldn't have both freely available to where they can put the bullets in the gun and accidentally kill themself or someone else.
Quote
How many kids successfully defend themselves from a bad guy with a gun, compared to how many kids are accidentally shot and killed with guns each year? The Brady campaign says that 2,200 children are accidentally injured or killed by a handgun each year. They couldn't do that if adults would lock up their guns.
Alright, you Nanny Staters are concerned with collateral damage. It's evident from your stance that the kid should not have had access to a gun because kids get hurt/killed by having access to them and that it's better to have the kid hurt than to have had access to the gun.
Well, you cite Brady's 2,200...now tell me how many kids are taken, abused, raped, and/or killed in the same time frame? I suspect it's more than 2,200 in spite of your rather limited "reference" that only deals with abduction. What opportunity for self-protection did they have since you refused them access to a gun?
And BTW, do you take the same stance with regard to other weapons for self defense? Could the kids have access to knives and such?
You'll probably take exception to the use of "Nanny Staters".
It fits though. You depend on the goobermint for protection and you arrogantly insist that others do the same.
Sorry. Nanny Stater fits like a glove.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
Quotenow tell me how many kids are taken, abused, raped, and/or killed in the same time frame? I suspect it's more than 2,200 in spite of your rather limited "reference" that only deals with abduction. What opportunity for self-protection did they have since you refused them access to a gun?
Are you advocating that all children should be armed in order to protect themselves from abuse, rape and murder?
Gee, the way kids define "abuse", there won't be any parents left after a short while.
Dad: "Eat your peas."
Kid: "No way!"
Dad: "Eat your peas."
Kid: "Fuck you!" Pulls gun. Bang! Throws peas and Dad in the dumpster.
ryoder 1,387
Quote
Alright, you Nanny Staters are concerned with collateral damage. It's evident from your stance that the kid should not have had access to a gun because kids get hurt/killed by having access to them and that it's better to have the kid hurt than to have had access to the gun.
Well, you cite Brady's 2,200...now tell me how many kids are taken, abused, raped, and/or killed in the same time frame? I suspect it's more than 2,200 in spite of your rather limited "reference" that only deals with abduction. What opportunity for self-protection did they have since you refused them access to a gun?
And BTW, do you take the same stance with regard to other weapons for self defense? Could the kids have access to knives and such?
Well, if we want to protect teenagers, I don't think it is guns and knives we should be most worried about:
QuoteMotor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of death for U.S. teens. In 2010, seven teens ages 16 to 19 died every day from motor vehicle injuries. Per mile driven, teen drivers ages 16 to 19 are three times more likely than drivers aged 20 and older to be in a fatal crash. Fortunately, teen motor vehicle crashes are preventable, and proven strategies can improve the safety of young drivers on the road.
In 2010, about 2,700 teens in the United States aged 16–19 were killed and almost 282,000 were treated and released from emergency departments for injuries suffered in motor-vehicle crashes.
Ref: http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/teen_drivers/teendrivers_factsheet.html
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.
You're still making the wrong comparison. A more informative comparison would be the number of children who know where a loaded gun is in their house and cause no accident due to that knowledge versus the number of children who do cause an accident.
-Calvin
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