jgoose71 0 #26 September 7, 2012 Quote Do you know what the top tax rate was during Eisenhower's presidency? Nixon's? Did it destroy the upper class? Once again, that argument is a load of crap. The U.S. had a monopoly on manufacturing until late 70's early 80's. Tax rate could have been 99% and it wouldn't have mattered. That's the beauty of monopolies.... When Japan, Europe, and China started to compete, that is when you saw the first dip in out economy under Carter, but he wasn't business oriented enough to see the cause. When Regan began to lower taxes to make us competitive with the rest of the world, you saw the boom of the 80's. Meanwhile, still trying to figure out how you grow the economy from the middle..."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #27 September 7, 2012 Quote Republicans have famously said "I've never gotten a job from a poor person." And this is a statement that I can agree with. Obama and Biden are claiming they are going to grow the economy "from the middle out." So here is your chance to argue your case, cause quite frankly, I don't understand how this is going fix things. Can someone explain to me the mechanisms in this course of action that will fix unemployment? [cue close-up] Persuade me, if you dare [/cue close-up] This is almost too easy. Questions back to you, how big was either Apple or Microsoft when they started? How many people did they employ in their first year? How many do they employ today?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #28 September 7, 2012 Quote Quote Republicans have famously said "I've never gotten a job from a poor person." And this is a statement that I can agree with. Obama and Biden are claiming they are going to grow the economy "from the middle out." So here is your chance to argue your case, cause quite frankly, I don't understand how this is going fix things. Can someone explain to me the mechanisms in this course of action that will fix unemployment? [cue close-up] Persuade me, if you dare [/cue close-up] This is almost too easy. Questions back to you, how big was either Apple or Microsoft when they started? How many people did they employ in their first year? How many do they employ today? Your right!!! All I got to do is invent a product that every one can use (computer OS) and market it unfairly to the point where the government hits me with anti-trust law suits to prevent me from having a monopoly!!!! Golly that was easy! Why didn't I think of that before? Monopolies are so good for making money, as long as you are the one with the monopoly...."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #29 September 7, 2012 So, then I -can- cross you off the list of Ayn Rand lovers.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #30 September 7, 2012 QuoteSo, then I -can- cross you off the list of Ayn Rand lovers. Are you suggesting that monopolies are a good thing?"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #31 September 7, 2012 I'm suggesting invention and creativity is the prime mover. Whether that becomes a monopoly is beyond the scope of my arguement. It certainly doesn't have to become a monopoly. It's not a requirement for success. Nor did I ever imply it was.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #32 September 8, 2012 QuoteI'm suggesting invention and creativity is the prime mover. Whether that becomes a monopoly is beyond the scope of my arguement. It certainly doesn't have to become a monopoly. It's not a requirement for success. Nor did I ever imply it was. I got that, but unless you are a major corporation that can take advantage of the tax loop holes, or, a major corporation that can manufacture and import your materials really cheap, you are already starting at a major disadvantage. The only way to overcome that advantage is to have a product that isn't competing with anyone else or gain complete control of that product (AKA monopoly. Do you know Microsoft's story and how they earned their billions?). While I'm sure that a few people will be able to do this, we still have 88 million working age people in America that are not working. What do we do for the rest of them? And I'm still not sure what Obama and Biden's plan is for growing the economy from the middle out..."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #33 September 8, 2012 As an after thought: I was under the impression we were supposed to be innovators in the "green jobs" industries, but our companies, like Solyndra, are undercut by Chinese manufactures, even with government grants and subsidies.... Still trying to figure out how we grow the economy from the middle out...."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 173 #34 September 8, 2012 Growing the economy from the middle is how it all starts out. Look at how many small business people started out with a chunk of life savings, worked hard and grew their business into a viable company that hired employees. I was a fireman. I invested my savings into building the Bent Prop Bar and Grill in Eloy. We hired 26 full and part time employees. I just started a DZ. We have two pilots, one office manager, many tandem instructors and packers/riggers. Look at your local town. Mom and Pop stores and businesses hire all sorts of people. Starting a business can make someone wealthy, but usually it is middle class Americans creating jobs. I never came close to making $250,000 per year and I have created more jobs than most politicians on either side of the aisle. That's how you grow the economy from the middle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #35 September 8, 2012 QuoteGrowing the economy from the middle is how it all starts out. Look at how many small business people started out with a chunk of life savings, worked hard and grew their business into a viable company that hired employees. I was a fireman. I invested my savings into building the Bent Prop Bar and Grill in Eloy. We hired 26 full and part time employees. How many of those guys are you paying $50,413 annually (not including health insurance which is part of the average compensation package but not included in the total) which is the median (half more, half less) 2012 household income? I'd guess zero to one apart from tips and yourself. How many get at least $40K annually? Or $21/hour which is what I believe the real middle class wage to be (with the typical 10 Federal holidays and 2 weeks of paid vacation) after helping children in their odyssey years who are getting paid less but who we'd like to have their own apartment, health insurance, savings to accommodate temporary disability and job loss, eventual retirement, and the other trappings of middle class life? How many net at least $25K annually which nets "middle class" according to other sources? Or $13/hour with normal holidays and vacation? Having tried that 20 years ago, rented rooms in houses instead of apartments, eschewed health insurance, and forgotten about retirement I'd disagree with that definition of middle class although for the sake of argument we could consider it. Quote I never came close to making $250,000 per year and I have created more jobs than most politicians on either side of the aisle. That's how you grow the economy from the middle. Perhaps, perhaps not. Compensation is more than just the annual salary reported on your W2 forms. How good is your annual pension? Multiply that by 25 to get to the savings you'd have needed as a private company employee. If you were a private company employee who retired to run the Bent Prop before 59 1/2 that would probably have come in a year or two as a stock win which required pre-tax earnings up to 50X your annual pension (39% top federal rate, 10.3% top California rate, you might not keep half of your payday after 20 years of trying). There's a _lot_ of latitude in how you define job creation. I've created jobs with phone calls to the Hispanic Cultural Center for a few hours at $15 per including ~25% tip (although less would work I'd feel bad) very part time for a quite limited duration. I doubt any of those guys will be getting their own apartments using my pay. AFAIK my friends who created jobs on earnings under $250K/year all created jobs paying somewhere between minimum wage and $10 an hour which comes up 20% short of middle class even with zero paid vacation and zero paid federal holidays. The only people I know who created _middle class_ jobs did it because for some period they did a lot better than $250K/year and didn't loose too much to taxes to cease working for money. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #36 September 8, 2012 Quote I was just using the current "Hero of the GOP", Mitt Romney, as an example. Ah yes, the unsubstantiated accusations. While we are at it, lets talk about whether or not Obama is a U.S. citizen.... Unsubstantiated? Romney doesn't deny having accounts in Switzerland and the Cayman Islands. Bermuda too, IIRC.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
richravizza 25 #37 September 8, 2012 I think it a Loaded Question. Look @ the Graph Who in the middle Hasn't Lost 50K in Home Equity? " ' in 401K / IRA ? How many mid class lost a good payn job/ income? I think(oops)U answered your own Question: WITH A STRONG ECONOMY.HOW? Start with an ENERGY POLICY, How can the Greatest Nation On Earth be captive to the Middle East/foreign energy Producers. The US can produce Natural Gas @ an advantage to any other. Rite NOW 1 million BTUof nat gas in the US is$3.00,cleaner ,cheaper, abundant,Domestic Energy Asia ,mid east, Eurpoe ect...it Costs $15.00 We have the ability for a Manufacturing Renaissance!! WE just need a Pro Growth, Pro Free Market Capitalist Admin, NOT with a "YOU DIDN'T BUILD THIS",administration. Mitt first course of ACTION, XL pipe,100% American Energy Independence by 2020 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
richravizza 25 #38 September 8, 2012 YOU DIDN"T BUILD THAT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #39 September 8, 2012 Quote YOU DIDN"T BUILD THAT And, from an infrastructure point of view that makes his business possible...specifically the airport...he didn't build that. THAT, is what Obama was saying when he said what he did...unless you choose to ignore the rest of the quote. http://abcnews.go.com/politics/t/blogEntry?id=16788668quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #40 September 8, 2012 Quote Quote I was just using the current "Hero of the GOP", Mitt Romney, as an example. Ah yes, the unsubstantiated accusations. While we are at it, lets talk about whether or not Obama is a U.S. citizen.... Unsubstantiated? Romney doesn't deny having accounts in Switzerland and the Cayman Islands. Bermuda too, IIRC. When has Mitt said that he has all of his money in those accounts? He has money invested everywhere, and a large amount of it is in the US. You can have bank accounts over seas, you pay US income tax on them if you are a US citizen. I guess it is unpatriotic to diversify to protect your worth. The real irony is the people who keep spouting this nonsense while have the shit they own was cheap ass crap made in China."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #41 September 8, 2012 Quote Quote Quote I was just using the current "Hero of the GOP", Mitt Romney, as an example. Ah yes, the unsubstantiated accusations. While we are at it, lets talk about whether or not Obama is a U.S. citizen.... Unsubstantiated? Romney doesn't deny having accounts in Switzerland and the Cayman Islands. Bermuda too, IIRC. When has Mitt said that he has all of his money in those accounts? He has money invested everywhere, and a large amount of it is in the US. . Where did I use the word "all" in relation to his money?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #42 September 9, 2012 Quote Growing the economy from the middle is how it all starts out. Look at how many small business people started out with a chunk of life savings, worked hard and grew their business into a viable company that hired employees. I was a fireman. I invested my savings into building the Bent Prop Bar and Grill in Eloy. We hired 26 full and part time employees. I just started a DZ. We have two pilots, one office manager, many tandem instructors and packers/riggers. Look at your local town. Mom and Pop stores and businesses hire all sorts of people. Starting a business can make someone wealthy, but usually it is middle class Americans creating jobs. I never came close to making $250,000 per year and I have created more jobs than most politicians on either side of the aisle. That's how you grow the economy from the middle. The best post so far.....But to me, this is an example of growing the economy form the bottom up, not from the middle out. You started with very little, and grew a company that employ's several people now. Good on you, however, how many of those people that you employ would you now say make a "middle class" pay check? Of the people that don't make a middle class paycheck, how many have the opportunity to work their way to a middle class pay check in your company? While your have definitely done your part to bring back America, here is a few more questions for you.... 1. Would your drop zone have done so well if you were competing against a dropzone that could offer lift tickets at a lot cheaper price than you because they had a "Green" Aircraft that could get jumpers to altitude at a subsidized price that was a lot cheaper than you could? 2. Do you offer your employee's health insurance? If no, you realize that it will be mandatory real soon, right? If yes, what have the prices done in the last couple of years and what has that done to your business? 3. Have your been limited by regulations? Has the FAA and the airport that your are working at put up any road blocks? Is there anything they could have done to help? Do you think that the removal or modification of these regulations would have lead to "dirty air and dirty water" for everyone around you? The point of this thread is that I know what the "Romney/ Ryan" presidency will do for the economy. I still don't get what the democrats mean when they say they will grow the economy "from the middle out.""There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #43 September 9, 2012 Quote I still don't get what the democrats mean when they say they will grow the economy "from the middle out." Sigh. It means, Grasshopper, that growing it from the top down only benefits the top. Even David Stockman got himself into trouble for honestly admitting that "trickle-down", for the most part.... doesn't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #44 September 9, 2012 Quote Quote I still don't get what the democrats mean when they say they will grow the economy "from the middle out." Sigh. It means, Grasshopper, that growing it from the top down only benefits the top. Even David Stockman got himself into trouble for honestly admitting that "trickle-down", for the most part.... doesn't. *Sigh* Thank you for telling me what it isn't, but the question is "What it is"....So far we have top down, AKA, "trickle down" where extra money at the top is supposed to be invested in the middle and bottom.... We have from the bottom up where people create new jobs them selves and grow them.... So WTF is the "middle out?""There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 173 #45 September 9, 2012 QuoteQuoteGrowing the economy from the middle is how it all starts out. Look at how many small business people started out with a chunk of life savings, worked hard and grew their business into a viable company that hired employees. I was a fireman. I invested my savings into building the Bent Prop Bar and Grill in Eloy. We hired 26 full and part time employees. How many of those guys are you paying $50,413 annually (not including health insurance which is part of the average compensation package but not included in the total) which is the median (half more, half less) 2012 household income? I'd guess zero to one apart from tips and yourself. How many get at least $40K annually? Or $21/hour which is what I believe the real middle class wage to be (with the typical 10 Federal holidays and 2 weeks of paid vacation) after helping children in their odyssey years who are getting paid less but who we'd like to have their own apartment, health insurance, savings to accommodate temporary disability and job loss, eventual retirement, and the other trappings of middle class life? How many net at least $25K annually which nets "middle class" according to other sources? Or $13/hour with normal holidays and vacation? Having tried that 20 years ago, rented rooms in houses instead of apartments, eschewed health insurance, and forgotten about retirement I'd disagree with that definition of middle class although for the sake of argument we could consider it. Quote I never came close to making $250,000 per year and I have created more jobs than most politicians on either side of the aisle. That's how you grow the economy from the middle. Perhaps, perhaps not. Compensation is more than just the annual salary reported on your W2 forms. How good is your annual pension? Multiply that by 25 to get to the savings you'd have needed as a private company employee. If you were a private company employee who retired to run the Bent Prop before 59 1/2 that would probably have come in a year or two as a stock win which required pre-tax earnings up to 50X your annual pension (39% top federal rate, 10.3% top California rate, you might not keep half of your payday after 20 years of trying). There's a _lot_ of latitude in how you define job creation. I've created jobs with phone calls to the Hispanic Cultural Center for a few hours at $15 per including ~25% tip (although less would work I'd feel bad) very part time for a quite limited duration. I doubt any of those guys will be getting their own apartments using my pay. AFAIK my friends who created jobs on earnings under $250K/year all created jobs paying somewhere between minimum wage and $10 an hour which comes up 20% short of middle class even with zero paid vacation and zero paid federal holidays. The only people I know who created _middle class_ jobs did it because for some period they did a lot better than $250K/year and didn't loose too much to taxes to cease working for money. You're looking at the smaller picture. When we BUILT the Bent Prop, we bought material and hired construction labor, keeping local Eloy business, and the Chandler Home Depot in business. We bought advertising, restaurant supplies, food, beer and alcohol, etc. All keeping local jobs going. The REAL trickle down, IMHO. The same with my new DZ. We buy fuel, lease a plane, advertising, etc. Our jumpers stay in local hoitels and buy food and fuel in Oceanside, all good for the local economy. Small business isn't always about creating big paying jobs. Most of my DZ staff work at other DZ's. All together they make over $50K each. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
